Person recorded: Clarence Murray Schofield

Date: 04 August 2004

Interviewer and abstractor: Morag Forrester

Tape counter: Sony TCM 939

Tape 1 Side A

005: Begins stating his full name is CLARENCE MURRAY SCHOFIELD; born 1923.

012: States he was born in hospital at MASTERTON but lived “in the sticks out on the coast.”

020: Replies that his FATHER was named CLARENCE EDGAR but was always called PAT, short for PADDY. His MOTHER’S name was AGNES TODD and came from a remote high country SHEEP STATION.

035: Believes his family name originated in YORKSHIRE, ENGLAND and that his branch is linked to a descendant who was deported to HOBART, TASMANIA, after he was found guilty of a “misdemeanour” – the reported theft of an overcoat. In the accompanying documents, there are details of the sentence handed down to SAMUEL SCHOFIELD in 1832. He was given seven years deportation on a charge of felony in connection with the theft of a greatcoat, valued at 18 pennies. At the age of 19, SAMUEL arrived in TASMANIA on 29 AUGUST 1832 on board a convict ship.

053: It was SAMUEL’S SON, JOSEPH, he says, who came to NEW ZEALAND with ploughing bullock and horse teams in the 1860s. Adds that they ended up at CASTLEPOINT on the WAIRARAPA COAST transporting wool and supplies for the STATIONS in the area.

061: Mentions that the same JOSEPH then took up land at TINUI, east of MASTERTON. Before then, he says, JOSEPH had been bridge building in the RAKAIA area of the SOUTH ISLAND, but encountered some setbacks.

088: States that JOSEPH married one of a family who’d arrived in WELLINGTON in 1841. (Her name was LAURA ELIZA ROBINSON).

092: Replies that while his MOTHER’S maiden name was of SCOTTISH origin, they too were early settlers. Later he stated her surname was EVANS and the family had settled at LAKE BRUNNER, WESTLAND. Adds that her FATHER was a MUSTERER for the CANTERBURY SHEEP STATIONS as well as those on the WAIRARAPA COAST.

107: Also says they took up land at PIRINOA/LAKE FERRY (PALLISER BAY).

112: Referring to where he grew up, says his GRANDFATHER SCHOFIELD’S property was called THE TRIANGLE, but his own early life was spent on a STATION called MAORILANDS at HINAKURA. Later stated his early teenage years were spent in central HAWKES BAY, mainly at PORANGAHAU. Quickly goes on to say that in the 1930s, his FATHER went into land development under the APIRAMA NGATA SCHEME by which MAORI-owned land was turned into FARMS, similar to the LANDS & SURVEY land development schemes of the post-war era. Stated later that SIR APIRAMA NGATA evolved the DEPARTMENT OF MAORI AFFAIRS farm development scheme for MAORI land.

122: Adds that as a result of his FATHER’S occupation, the family always lived in back country areas which contained greater MAORI populations.

127: Explains that the APIRAMA NGATA scheme allowed MAORI to lease FARMS from the tribal structure allowing more autonomy for each farm’s development. However, unlike the L&S SCHEME, the land was still owned by the tribe, not the individual farmer.

144: Mentions that one of his BROTHERS followed their FATHER in doing similar work.

164: Says his earliest memories of growing up include having his own dogs and using a 410 shotgun to shoot birds (but not the native ones) that were eating fruit from apple trees in the garden. Later stated the 410 was a light shotgun considered safer for children to use than a .22 rifle.

173: States he had two BROTHERS and one SISTER around his age group and some years later a third BROTHER and second SISTER were born. (To the same parents, i.e.; no remarriage). Adds that a third SISTER had been born in the earlier years, but she died young from meningitis.

206: Recalls attending primary school (at HINAKURA east of MARTINBOROUGH), where he says, there were a total of twelve/thirteen pupils. Secondary schooling was at the newly opened WAIRARAPA COLLEGE in MASTERTON.

212: Comments that the primary school was a one-room building. Says a local farmer allocated the piece of land for its construction and the education department did the rest while a local committee was formed to oversee the running of it.

225: Says it was the MUSTERERS and SHEPHERDS that gave him the idea that the TEACHING profession should be his aim because of all the holidays TEACHERS got. So that, he says, was his objective and he went to TEACHER TRAINING COLLEGE in WELLINGTON.

233: Referring back to his primary school, says they were taught “reading, writing, arithmetic” and quite extensive NEW ZEALAND history. Adds that his secondary education was in hindsight more “British Empire” focused (in terms of the history taught).

251: Discussing the effects of the NZ DEPRESSION (from the late 1920s to pre-WWII), says he considers that farming people fared better than those in the cities because they had access to their own fresh produce.

267: Recalls that the usual mode of transport to school was on horseback. And that horse-riding sports were a family tradition adding that his competitive urge was focused on winning against fellow pupils and neighbours who often were from the same family (cousins etc).

281: Mentions that due to the efforts of one teacher who was a keen RUGBY FOOTBALL coach, he quickly learned good skills in that sport. Says the teacher, IVOR CHARLES (father of BOB CHARLES) from CANTERBURY, pulled together a 7-aside team from the twelve pupils. Stated that the teacher prepared his pupils with a solid grounding in cricket and rugby which helped them get on to the secondary school teams at an early age. This in turn, he said, boosted their “mana” and probably contributed to their reputation as team players later in life.

303: Responding to question, says after completing TRAINING COLLEGE, he joined the FLEET AIR ARM (of the NZ NAVY) during WWII which is what took him overseas.

307: Returning to his earlier education, says WAIRARAPA COLLEGE was one of the country’s first CO-ED schools (mixed gender).

312: Mentions that because of his FATHER’S link with the MAORI TANGA of the day, he received extra tuition in this subject and planned to teach ENGLISH at the MAORI schools in the more remote areas.

328: Describes himself as “your average lazy student” at school. And that his parents were proud of his TEACHING qualification although they were less happy when he decided to go DEER CULLING instead.

333: Replies that he was 18/19 at TEACHER TRAINING COLLEGE, and that he went overseas as part of the war effort at the age of 20.

340: Remembers he learned a hard lesson overseas when his group came under attack from enemy fire. With depth charges exploding and allied aircraft chasing GERMAN submarines surrounding the convoy he was with: “I suddenly woke up that gee I’d better be good at what I’m gonna do if I’m gonna survive. This is real.” This, he says, made him become an instant “swot”.

347: Referring back to his TEACHER TRAINING, says he attended KELBURN COLLEGE in WELLINGTON. Says the students were paid eight pounds a week (maybe a month) which helped to pay for lodging expenses.

356: States that having boarded at MASTERTON where things were quite regimented, it wasn’t too different in WELLINGTON.

365: Says again that tertiary education in those days was virtually free because of the policies adopted by the LABOUR government of the time.

381: Recalls his boarding house was on VIVIAN STREET in WELLINGTON and that there were about half a dozen other students staying there. “I don’t think any of them became FISHERMEN later, (laughs).”

389: Explains the reason he joined up with the FLEET AIR ARM was because an older BROTHER had already enlisted with the RNZAF so he had to be different and yet he wanted to learn to fly.

399: Replies that his troop was the first to be sent straight to ENGLAND for two years of training. “I was very fortunate that while I learned to fly, the…eh…war ended before I had to prove anything.”

409: States he came home and was granted a year’s leave from teaching so his plan was to go crocodile hunting in the NORTHERN TERRITORY of AUSTRALIA.

Tape 1 Side A stops

Tape 1 Side B starts

002: Continues the above theme, saying that he arrived in WELLINGTON to board the WANGANELLA bound for SYDNEY on a MONDAY. However, the ship only sailed out on a FRIDAY. While wandering the city streets, he decided it would be a better idea to do a year’s DEER CULLING before heading for AUSTRALIA.

026: “Twenty-seven years later I left DEER CULLING.” A re-calculation showed it was in fact a total of 23 years in DEER work, from CULLING to becoming a FIELD OFFICER with the DEPARTMENT OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS (DIA), then the FOREST SERVICE division (FS) and finally the LANDS & SURVEY DEPARTMENT (L&S) which at that stage managed the NATIONAL PARKS.

040: Mentions that DEER CULLING started in the early 1930s and that he joined in the late 1940s by which time, he says, the SHOOTERS were asking themselves what they were doing it for.

054: Recalls his first DEER CULLING expedition was in the TARARUA RANGES.

058: Says he was paid a small wage (about five pounds a week) and a set rate for skins and tails. “But you were looked on very seriously if you took tails because it meant you were being lazy about skinning.”

066: Mentions they had to work in pairs over a certain area of country under the supervision of a FIELD OFFICER. Later qualified this saying that two hunters were assigned to each shooting BLOCK but they usually hunted alone and met up every so often.

070: “You always went up the river with food and down the river with skins. You never…you never travelled empty because this was the only way you could move things to get to the road end.”

075: Replies that each CULLER was expected to tally about 500 skins a year over the season – OCTOBER-MAY.

077: Summer, he says, started in OCTOBER when you went into the allocated BLOCK – usually two or three river valleys. First job was to clear up your tracks and install camps (main food depots). Being SPRING, the DEER were more likely to be at lower levels, but later with improved vegetation growth, they moved to the tops so the CULLERS had to follow.

091: Affirms that this was before the era of HELICOPTER/FIXED WING assistance so the CULLERS had to walk into their BLOCKS carrying whatever they needed with them.

094: Supplies, he continues, were driven into the road end or sometimes the CULLERS were able to use PACKHORSES to carry food into the base camp.

110: Explains that apart from a break at CHRISTMAS, the CULLERS stayed in their blocks until the end of APRIL.

117: After that, he says, there would be another short break and then it was onto CULLING in lower country usually SHOOTING wild pigs or goats or perhaps building tracks for the summer season.

124: Food rations, he says, were mostly rice which he mixed up into a stew with DEER meat. “A herbivore had no place in that lot (laughs).” Later he said the base camps had basic non-perishable foods and the rice and dried stew mix were the main items for fly camping trips.

131: Adds that the CULLERS cooked their own bread and in later years, when airdrops began, food would be dropped into the BLOCKS. Later mentioned that this change started the move to tails-only bonus payments and that the hunters worked much further from the road-ends and sheep country.

153: States that they had to carry in tents and they evolved a set up which included a large fly over a small, galley-sized tent with canvas brought round to meet a big chimney in front. The doorway, he says, would be alongside the chimney. Tables and bunk beds were made from the surrounding timber.

161: Continues this theme saying that they also had a smaller fly camp which they carried round with them, particularly when working the tops of the ranges.

174: Replies that the TARARUAS and FIORDLAND have much the same wet weather conditions. Adds that CULLING in the latter had become confined mainly to the TAKAHE area while the WAPITI district was, and still is, in contention between the authorities and WAPITI hunting enthusiasts.

191: Says that in subsequent years as a FIELD OFFICER, he was involved in a study into both WAPITI and RED DEER in FIORDLAND which followed another study by an AMERICAN researcher who investigated WAPITI in CASWELL SOUND (FIORDLAND).

197: Also mentions the DEER CULLING at the back of MANAPOURI which, he says, was what initiated in many of them questions as to why and for whom the CULLING was being done.

220: As more questions were being asked in WELLINGTON, says he pared the issue down to four problem types and submitted his ideas. (These are elaborated upon further on). As a result, he says he ended up in the capital city which he described as a bit of a culture shock after roaming the bush.

231: Goes on to say that it took him a year to realise that he would be bound to a desk for life and that at the age of 32 it took him another two years to get demoted back to a SENIOR FIELD OFFICER job.

239: It was about then, he says, that the WILDLIFE DIVISION stayed with the DIA while the DEER CULLING sector shifted to the FOREST SERVICE (FS) under ENVIRONMENTAL FORESTRY as separate from PRODUCTION FORESTRY.

246: States that the FS then began its FOREST PARK concept which was different from that of the NATIONAL PARKS. The former, he says was open to different uses such as SAWMILLING and FARMING while the latter was for VISITORS/RECREATION only.

256: It meant, he says, that for two of his three years in WELLINGTON, he had to try and combine the theory of the new FOREST PARKS legislation into something that would win public support.

268: Goes on to say his chosen demotion was to SENIOR FIELD OFFICER at PALMERSTON NORTH where he was running FS operations in several mountain ranges including the TARARUAS, the RUAHINES and the KAIMANUWAS, the AHIMANAWAS and the KAWEKAS with FIELD OFFICERS at NAPIER and MASTERTON.

273: Responding to question, repeats he went SHOOTING for three years before going on staff for the DIA, then FS till 1962 when he went to work for the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK BOARD (his employers being the LANDS & SURVEY DEPARTMENT).

287: Referring back to the four problems caused by wild animals he says they were: 1) Trying to keep erosion to its natural lifetime rather than speeded up. But he says some river areas are too rock solid for browse-induced erosion. Later added FIORDLAND is a case in point but CANTERBURY is very vulnerable because of its steep greywacke rock and farm and town values in the lower reaches of most rivers needing flood protection; 2) The protection of sapling trees which meant ensuring animals were kept off planted areas for the critical period, i.e., protecting them from rabbits first, then pigs, then DEER; 3) Competition with domestic stock. Believes the runholders had had “a good spin” right up to WWII so it was “time for change” and; 4) In areas such as FIORDLAND and STEWART ISLAND, which were RESERVES, the only cure was for “total eradication. Back to what you would call the new ACT of BIODIVERSITY”.

329: Explains that in order to define priority for the allocation of money, the entire country was mapped out from river catchment to river catchment highlighting these four types of problems.

338: Declares that his findings were essential to the FOREST PARK concept but that he didn’t realise then that the concept would end up being the forebear to the RESOURCE MANAGEMENT ACT.

346: Referring again to his DEER CULLING, says he was paid about five pounds a week, plus a bonus for skins. However, he says he missed out on the later period when hunters collected tails only: “Pity.”

360: Agrees that the type of person to do the job required an ability to cope with isolation. When he was dispatching new people into the back country, he says, he had to work with them for a few days to ensure they were capable of the job.

380: Describes an occasion involving an unsuitable recruit who instead of shooting DEER, came out with the carcasses of domesticated pigs.

392: Discussing his return to the back country after three years in a WELLINGTON office, he admits that by then he was MARRIED. “Marriage had a different connotation in those days in the sense that, eh, you didn’t both have to earn a wage or that and…a girl got MARRIED, she took a heck of a risk on the guy….”

399: Says he tells NANCY their marriage is their very own TREATY of WAITANGI. “The husband owned everything that the girl had and of course NANCY (neé TRAILL) had a few hundred quids-worth of AMBERGRIS and had saved money on her NURSING wages.” He later added that he could not believe his luck nor could he understand how a NURSE could have saved any money.

406: Explains that he first visited STEWART ISLAND while DEER CULLING.

Tape 1 Side B stops

Tape 2 Side A starts

010: Recalls the circumstances under which he met NANCY. Says it was in 1949 and they were introduced by her parents (ARTHUR and MATEEN TRAILL whose family was among the first EUROPEAN settlers on STEWART ISLAND, linked not only with the TRAILLS from ORKNEY, but also the REV. J F H WOHLERS who arrived on board the DEBORAH in 1844 and began his missionary work on RUAPUKE ISLAND, north east of STEWART ISLAND in FOUVEAUX STRAIT). Discovering that NANCY was working as a NURSE in CHRISTCHURCH, he made an overture by suggesting he look her up when he shifted to work in the CANTERBURY area. “That was the start…the end of it, you might say (laughs).”

037: States they got MARRIED in SEPTEMBER, 1952 on STEWART ISLAND (at the PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH which celebrates its centenary in SEPTEMBER 2004).

042: Recalls buying NANCY’S engagement ring. “I was going to buy a radio for my government truck and I spent it on an engagement ring. Now that is love, isn’t it? (laughs)”

053: In sympathy with women in the 1950s he says: “In those days, gosh, there had to be some gambles… (laughs)…the girl was stuck with it, you know, it’s horrific to think…how much better the situation is now.”

067: Mentions that they first lived in NELSON (where they also went on honeymoon) because he was involved in the CULLING industry in that area.

072: Explains that they stayed about three years in each area that he worked.

101: Talking about NANCY’S family background, he adds that she is also linked to another ISLAND family, the LEASKS.

142: States that he secured work in different conservancies, all the time moving further south because their intention was to return to live on STEWART ISLAND.

150: Says their first CHILD (CAROLYN) was born (MARCH 1953) while they lived in RICHMOND, NELSON. Says it was while he was working in the KARAMEA area so he missed the event, returning home at the same time as NANCY and the newborn had left the hospital.

163: Recalls that at the time “it didn’t occur to me that it was odd” and relates a comment from a friend who was with NANCY then. Quotes her as saying only recently that he had done the right thing because he had had to protect his job which was “the done thing” in the 1950s.

179: Expresses some horror at the thought of being at the birth of his children. “I would rather be out looking from behind a tree, eh, while women do the thing that women are good at.”

190: Replies that NANCY was expected to give up her NURSING career after they MARRIED. “My job was to produce the dough and NANCY’S was to run the family.”

204: As an aside, he replies that AMBERGRIS is a waste product of the WHALE used for making perfume. (It is a strong-smelling waxlike secretion of the intestine of the SPERM WHALE, used as a fixative for scent, particularly in factories in FRANCE and GERMANY. At one time it could fetch up to 5 pounds an ounce. However, with the introduction and improvement of synthetic alternatives, AMBERGRIS is no longer required.)

211: And yet, he says, AMBERGRIS still fetches high prices suspecting that it now has other use values apart from perfume production. “In fact a big chunk was found here the other day that was quarter of a million (dollars-worth).”

214: Mentions that in the 1930s (after the early WHALING INDUSTRY years) it was the done thing to patrol MASONS BAY, DOUGHBOY and RUGGEDY just looking for AMBERGRIS. Adds that NANCY’S parents were farming MASONS BAY and were always scanning the beaches for it when money was short.

228: Tape stopped for a brief respite

247: Reiterates an earlier statement that he ended up in WELLINGTON in charge of the FIELD WORK across NEW ZEALAND and that he was destined to replace his superior who was in charge of the ANIMAL CONTROL WORK.

255: Affirms that he began working in FIORDLAND about 1961/62. Explains that prior to the formation of the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK (FNP) in the early 1950s, the area had been looked after as part of “waste areas” by the government.

260: Goes on to say there had been a CARETAKER/RANGER whose job was to look after the reserve. But with the growth of the FOREST PARK concept, he says, the NATIONAL PARKS linked up with LANDS & SURVEY (L&S) (under the NATIONAL PARKS ACT) and each PARK had its own BOARD (of government-appointed) members.

271: States that the new setup was often not popular with the CARETAKERS who had to work under new rules.

277: Agrees that the first FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK RANGER was PHIL DORIZAC. Says he ended up being his boss because the FNP BOARD deemed DORIZAC a good CARETAKER but not an administrator.

285: Says he was just settling into a job in WESTLAND when he was asked to consider taking up the CHIEF RANGER’S position in FIORDLAND.

294: Mentions already having made some changes in WESTLAND by extending the CHIEF RANGER’S remit down to HAAST, adding that he forever lost favour with that district’s previous RANGER, based out of QUEENSTOWN.

300: States he got used to bridging the gap between the guy in the field and government and had also learned the knack required to extract money from the latter.

309: Says that because FIORDLAND was closer still to STEWART ISLAND he opted to take the job and ended up in TE ANAU in 1962. Later he stated that FIORDLAND like WESTLAND has a vast mountainous country to roam around in so it had the same appeal, and it was in some ways connected to STEWART ISLAND.

314: Replies that at that time, NANCY was pregnant with their fifth and last CHILD (JEFFREY).

322: Answers that because he was employed by the FNP BOARD, it was a jump from the FOREST SERVICE (FS) to L&S. Describes the formation of the PARKS as being areas of timber country that were of no use other than for visitor recreation. And, he says, it was good public relations on the part of government to have set aside such areas for that purpose.

332: Continues along this line and says that the FS-controlled areas were the rest of the back country apart from the L&S-controlled leased land that was used for stock grazing by the runholders. But, he says, a lot of those leases went further than the area grazed by sheep, something, he adds, that’s being tidied up today. (Referring to the government’s Pastoral Tenure Review begun in 1998.)

338: Says he worked in FIORDLAND for about seven years. Says he was aware of changes taking place concerning the management of the PARK. As it was a RESERVE, he says, he had to adapt to different practices as it was no longer the case of fitting people’s livelihoods into the FOREST – i.e., FARMERS, SAWMILLERS, MINERS, etc.

348: States that the PARK BOARD had been granted funds “and they had to spend them in objective ways that help people which was based around people’s interests of whatever they wanted to do…eh, not tourism…it’s visitation of one sort or another.”

351: Adds a rider that his perception of tourism is “busloads of people being transhipped around the world and moved as mobs like cattle trucks”. In contrast, he says, visitation he sees as the “FORESTRY (SERVICE) kind of thing, not the MILFORD (SOUND) kind of thing.”

355: So, he says, they set up picnic sites here and there and ran a rubbish collection service through to MILFORD once a week.

359: Plus, he adds, his staff built HUTS in the PARK with assistance from helicopters.

362: Affirms that the government-run TOURISM HOTEL CORPORATION (THC) had been running the MILFORD TRACK for many years as part of an effort to build a tourism industry. He says TE ANAU, MILFORD, the MILFORD ROAD and the MILFORD TRACK were all part of that exercise that also occurred along the WANGANUI RIVER and other places.

372: States the THC controlled, accommodated and charge all who walked the MILFORD TRACK. But during his time with the FNP an additional system was set up whereby trampers could walk the TRACK independently of the THC, using FNP huts and providing for themselves.

382: States part of his job was to draw up plans on how the government funding should be spent, put those plans to the BOARD (which at that stage had autonomous rights on decision-making) and whatever was approved, he then ensured the funds were used on the various projects.

406: Recalls that three people he worked with in WESTLAND also joined his staff team in TE ANAU.

411: Replies that as far as making plans for the PARK “I just dreamed them up” after noting any problem areas. These, he says, mainly concerned usage, such as “people roaming round with dogs” or “going into the TAKAHE COUNTRY when they weren’t supposed to”.

Tape 2 Side A stops

Tape 2 Side B starts

002: Continues an off-tape discussion about a couple of RANGERS in TUATAPERE, LEN and PAT MCCONNELL and their wives, FAY and CAROL who “thought back country”. As a result, he says, they had a good relationship with local residents so there were no problems surrounding the formation of the LAKE HAUROKO area for recreation.

025: Suggests that TE ANAU had specific problems, mainly concerning the HUNTING fraternity and particularly over the WAPITI (a type of elk which, along with RED DEER, is considered an introduced species and therefore, under current legislation, should be eradicated from the PARK).

033: Mentions that there was a HUNTING system which involved the allocation of HUNTING BLOCKS for all species of DEER. States he changed the system to one that showed shooter occupation on the day of application and, in particular, exempted the PARK from being responsible for shooting accidents.

050: States (in document corrections) that the previous method was being abused with fake applications to keep other HUNTERS out of favoured areas under the guise of the FNP only letting in a “safe” number, whatever that meant. Adds that after he left they reverted back to the old system and that the WAPITI area bugle hunting allocation is quite a different long-standing situation.

069: States that SEARCH & RESCUE was another area that needed change. Explains that the universities had a group of “alpinists” (ALPINE CLUB mountaineers) and that those that had climbed various peaks “sort of took over SEARCH & RESCUE”.

082: Adds that with helicopters and floatplanes being used as well, he stepped in. “I rode in roughshod here” and told the people involved that for the first two days of an emergency requiring S & R, he was in charge. Thereafter, he says, I told them I would turn over the operation to them. “The difference being I might be able to save a life, they’ll look for dead bodies.”

124: On the era of HELICOPTERS being used for both DEER SHOOTING and LIVE CAPTURE, says that he had left the job by then but adds: “It wouldn’t ’a’ happened with me. They gave a guy special…one outfit... special privileges and you’re never gonna win with that one.” (This refers to the decision by the FNP BOARD to award a permit to only one HELICOPTER operator and his crews to HUNT DEER in the PARK as part of the CULLING exercise. However, rival HELICOPTER operators moved in without permission and conflict ensued. The BOARD, after some years, took the decision to open up the permit system.)

141: Describes these types of issues as evolving into some kind of game between opposing parties. And uses, as an example, a dispute over fishing rights in TURANGI on LAKE TAUPO.

177: Referring back to the MILFORD TRACK, affirms there was much tension between the THC and the FNP BOARD and the COMMISSIONER OF CROWN LANDS. Explains that it was the head of the THC in WELLINGTON who put up objections and that his orders were handed down to all THC-operated hotels around NEW ZEALAND, including the MILFORD HOTEL.

199: Mentions that the THC refused permission for the RANGERS to use its tractors and gives an amusing account of how one of his staff responded.

211: On the construction of the huts on the MILFORD TRACK, says it was a colleague who built them. Adds that he brought in the materials to the sites using helicopters which again, he says, caused much controversy with newspaper reports that it was costing the FNP BOARD one pound per minute to bring in such supplies.

227: Refutes claims that it was a costly exercise to use helicopters. “It was cheap in terms of achievement.” Says that if the alternative method was used – transporting the supplies by boat and packhorse – it would have taken half a year and would therefore have been more expensive.

239: Relations between the BOARD and the THC improved, he says, once the head guy for the latter left and the THC adopted a new approach. Adds that the BOARD had to allocate one (seasonal) permanent staff member to look after the huts and the THC also used him to supervise some of its operations on the TRACK.

256: States that when his staff built the FNP HUTS, they provided more beds than were required but “then they got filled, and a bigger hut is built, and that gets filled, and so…”.

270: Discussion moves on to the TE ANAU township, which he says was similar to STEWART ISLAND when everyone was CRAYFISHING, the men would all be away (working in the DEER HUNTING or FISHING industries).

273: Recalls the contractors who worked for the L&S FARM DEVELOPMENT SCHEME (which began in the 1950s). Agrees that it changed the face of the TE ANAU BASIN.

287: Considers the benefits are that it creates cash for the town through the productivity of the FARM BLOCKS to add to the TOURISM INDUSTRY and that DOC (management) doesn’t see that for the town to continue to thrive, it needs a balance of industries, not just TOURISM/RECREATION.

302: Argues that as a result, DOC is faced with so many “antis”. Yet the antis are talking to the wrong DOC staff, he says; instead of those on the ground level, they should be able to reach the administrators with a hot line to the CAUCUS (in WELLINGTON).

[In a written comment, he said that when they were living in TE ANAU, the small population was largely made up of individualistic agricultural contractors and those in the tourist industry, deer-meat hunters and the first of the FIORDLAND fishing people. The latter, he said, started moving their families to TE ANAU as soon as the HIGH SCHOOL opened at the MANAPOURI HYDRO VILLAGE as a bi-product of the power scheme in the mid-1960s. In comparison, he wrote, the “cash flows” for STEWART ISLAND are only those from REDUCED QUOTA FISHING, FISH FARMING and more of a “visitation”-type of TOURISM with no likelihood of a SECONDARY SCHOOL. The individualism of the inhabitants, he said, was the only common factor (between the two places).]

[As an additional comment MURRAY wrote the following: DOC administration is failing to some degree by not acting out its function of balancing the uses of AVAILABLE RESOURCE with CONSERVATION for the long-term good of the human component – (the village as a UNIT) – and [ought to be] explaining the balance to the locals to keep all on side. DOC is limiting commercial uses over the adjacent seas in FIORDLAND because of the NEARBY PARK. TE ANAU and MANAPOURI townships take up the slack with drop-off money from the other cash flows [FARMING, TOURISM] so it is not noticed. Should DOC take the same approach over the STEWART ISLAND sea area, the township of HALFMOON BAY would be very seriously affected. DOC administration has a lot to develop yet in its TWO-ACT balancing. But, this is not a criticism of the FIELD WORKERS who, despite doing a worthwhile job, are the ones who meet the antagonism of those locals affected by what seem to be administration shortcomings.]

310: “It’s a pity, that…but it’s a fact of life because DOC’S PR (public relations) isn’t up to it.”

313: Refers to the MANAPOURI HYDRO ELECTRIC POWER SCHEME. Says he took the view that it was such a big scheme that it needed some thought as to what could be gained from it in the longer term.

323: Recalls the problem, however, was that the MINISTRY of PUBLIC WORKS (MOW) and the NATIONAL PARK authorities were adversaries. “Each one was taking an opposing attitude.” Says he couldn’t find support for his longterm view from either side.

330: Comments that he was “horrified” when he discovered that a completely separate township was to be made between TE ANAU and MANAPOURI to house workers and their families only for the duration of the scheme’s construction. Says they could have provided all that sewage and other benefits in either of the existing towns.

335: Says he was also horrified with the plans to dismantle the temporary township so that not a trace was to remain once the scheme was completed. Says he “fell out” with the COMMISSIONER OF CROWN LANDS who approved the plans.

342: Continues that he got on side with the project leader of the design company, BECHTELS, and between them they agreed to certain manoeuvres that would work to each other’s advantage but which went unreported to the authorities. These, he says, included elements in the construction of the WILMOT PASS ROAD. Later he added that the BECHTEL’S engineer moved the centre line of the road that created the first lookout point and had the contractors fill in the head of a creek to form the one that takes in the first view of DOUBTFUL SOUND at WILMOT PASS. He stated that he undertook to keep the public (and the media) at a distance until each area had been tidied up and completed. The fishing boat slipway (at DEEP COVE), he said, was created on the same terms but not as well designed as it should have been. He also wrote that he missed out on securing a permanent diesel fuelling area for RECREATION and COMMERCIAL FISHING to save the boats having to undertake the long haul to MILFORD or BLUFF.

365: Mentions that he pushed for the BORLAND ROAD to be developed through to DEEP COVE so that it could eventually be made into an alternative port to MILFORD SOUND and one that would be accessible by road.

369: Says he contacted the relevant minister but didn’t realise that the said MP had close affiliations with LES HUTCHINS, and so “there was no way there was gonna be access in there (DEEP COVE) without having to use HUTCHY’S boats (laughs).” LES HUTCHINS was owner/operator of the FIORDLAND TRAVEL CO., which ran tourism launch vessels on LAKE MANAPOURI and DOUBTFUL SOUND (where DEEP COVE is situated). During construction of the power scheme, HUTCHINS provided a transport service for workers and visitors. He was also a leading voice in the campaign to prevent LAKE MANAPOURI being raised (for the hydro scheme).

375: Remembers that he tried to get the various buildings that were put up done in tanalised wood so that they could be left there. With BORLAND LODGE, he says, it wasn’t treated wood but it was allowed to remain standing. Similarly, he adds, the DEEP COVE LODGE was left on site.

396: What vexed him even more, he says, was that BECHTELS moved on from MANAPOURI to the TURANGI/TAUPO SCHEME and in order to win public support, the MINISTRY of WORKS extolled the promise of how much the construction of houses etc., would be allowed to remain for later use.

404: On his decision to leave the CHIEF RANGER’S job, he says that by 1968, the PARKS authorities had expanded and that the WELLINGTON core had evolved a group that took over the allocation of money to the BOARDS. “So the BOARDS became virtual yes-men.”

410: So, he says, he had to think about it - whether at the age of 44 to ride it out and do what everyone else wants. But, he laughs, he realised he had to live with himself and that again, “thanks to a supportive wife, next thing I was at the CHATHAMS trying to learn how to be a FISHERMAN”.

416: Replies that at that time there was a sudden goldrush to the CHATHAMS where the surrounding waters were rich with CRAYFISH.

Tape 2 Side B stops

Tape 3 Side A starts

002: Continues off-tape talk about the similarities between FISHING and HUNTING.

018: States that for the FISHERMEN of FIORDLAND, their boat and surrounding waters are home.

032: Agrees that it was a big jump for him to go from a land-based job to one at sea, but also considers that it was still working in the “back country”. Qualifies this by saying the boat got him into remote areas which fed his “hobby” of experiencing the benefits of remote places; the fauna, flora and people.

046: Admits that he had a lot to learn although he also thinks he was lucky to have netted some good catches at first. Says he also used what he learned in the AIR/FLEET services to get his first ticket to become an inshore SKIPPER.

062: Concedes he knew little about being a real FISHERMAN despite gaining the qualification of DEEP SEA SKIPPER NO 8. But as a trade off with a few other FISHERMEN at the CHATHAMS, he let it be known that he could handle all the paperwork for them while they would have to teach him their intuitive skills. “Gee, they knew their stuff.”

080: Replies that he lived on his boat while NANCY and the CHILDREN stayed on in TE ANAU. Adds that he came up with a roster system for the FISHERMEN, of six weeks offshore/four weeks onshore, which he admits only really worked, economically, because of the rich supplies of CRAYFISH.

104: Describes the CRAYFISH as similar to herds of buffalo but instead of roaming on land, they roamed the seabed. Says the FISHERMEN in groups of four or five boats, ran their LOBSTER POTS off in straight lines. It also meant, he adds, that they could follow a mob by swapping notes on which POTS were filled.

114: Mentions having forty POTS on his boat which, he says, was about the average number for each vessel.

118: Affirms that they trawled previously untrammelled waters where the senior male CRAYFISH were territorial creatures about their habitats. Quite different, he says, from the behaviour of the female CRAYFISH. “You’ll catch all of one, or all of the other in certain seasons.” Later commented that this applies to habitat use in the original situation only. The seasonal use of an area changes dramatically after the old adults are caught out and replaced by a bulk of, now able to survive, youngsters.

127: Adds that it was information that he was able to take with him when he later went fishing around the SNARES.

140: Recalls he spent three years fishing in the CHATHAMS and then returned to fish in FIORDLAND.

149: States fishing in the latter area was “quite different” because the CRAYFISH were younger and their habits were different from their senior counterparts which had been depleted in FIORDLAND by then.

161: Replies that he spent a further three years fishing in FIORDLAND before he and NANCY returned to STEWART ISLAND with the family. Says he then fished at the (SOUTH) CAPE where he would also undertake exploratory offshore forays, assisted by newly introduced hydraulic haulers which allowed a boat to work pots in much deeper waters, economically.

176: Recalls that the period during which he worked as a FISHERMAN was a “boom” time with few government restrictions. Says while other areas were catching three tonnes of CRAYFISH, on STEWART ISLAND they were catching 15 tonnes.

188: Describes it as a good working structure on the boat where there was one person steering the vessel and a deckhand who knew the ropes. Between the two was the boat “which virtually became your surname”.

192: Affirms it is a competitive industry with FISHERMEN vying for the biggest catch.

212: Replies that the family left TE ANAU to move to STEWART ISLAND in 1971 to live at NANCY’S parents’ property on RINGARINGA to help out the elderly couple as required. Stated later that they had become closely attached to TE ANAU, so it was quite a wrench for them both to leave.

219: Says the children had been attending the MANAPOURI HYDRO SCHOOL so when they moved, one DAUGHTER, ROBYN, started fishing as crew with him; the other, CAROLYN, took up NURSING. Two of their SONS, KEVIN and PETER were enrolled at COLDSTREAM HOSTEL and attended JAMES HARGEST HIGH SCHOOL in INVERCARGILL. The youngest CHILD, JEFFREY, started CORRESPONDENCE SCHOOL, supervised by NANCY, with the four of them living on the boat, PEGASUS.

223: Says NANCY and JEFFREY went ashore each day to an old hut to conduct his school lessons.

231: Mentions trying to persuade the BOYS to consider tertiary education but says they wanted to become FISHERMEN because it seemed a far more lucrative option. Says he made it a stipulation that should FISHING be their chosen career, they would have to spend three years working as crew for him and from the profits, they could thereafter get a boat of their own.

238: Says NANCY’S MOTHER became ill, so she returned to RINGARINGA with JEFFREY who went to the local primary school (at HALFMOON BAY).

242: States ROBYN qualified as a MATE - DEEP SEA and it was during a research trip to investigate the habits of KING CRAB in ALASKA that she met a scientist who became her husband.

260: Lists his CHILDREN’S names and situations. CAROLYN is the eldest, followed by ROBYN, then KEVIN who also went on to DEEP SEA fishing and is now involved in TREE PLANTING in the INVERCARGILL area.

274: Mentions KEVIN’S recent marriage and that he is now combining horticulture with some COMMERCIAL FISHING along with a side-interest in boat designing. He then goes on to the next CHILD, PETER, who he describes as being the most able at administration. Says that while PETER also went FISHING around the SOUTH ISLAND, he has recently taken up FISH FARMING.

307: As an aside, recalls that NANCY was complimented by their fishing colleagues for her abilities at ‘throwing the grapnel’. Later he explained that the grapnel is a metal hook tied on a length of rope and thrown to snare the floats of each individual pot before attaching to the hauler. Commented that quite a skill is required when floats are bobbing under and the boat is rolling and means more pots are lifted between tides.

312: Replies that the youngest CHILD, JEFFREY, gave up his fishing quota and bought property in KARAMEA where he carves furniture and other items from beachcombing materials. Says he also keeps his hand in by occasionally relieving for owner/operator skippers out of WESTPORT during the tuna season.

341: Referring back to his days working for the FNP BOARD, says he still maintains an interest in what goes on in the PARK but considers that much of the information that was learned through the 1950s got lost in the changeover (in 1987 the DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION was formed out of a restructuring of L&S as well as the WILDLIFE DIVISION and the FS sectors of the DIA.). Commented later that the very capable higher-ranked administration officers in the FS who were experienced and had evolved with ENVIRONMENTAL FORESTRY, seemed to disappear with the STATE-OWNED ENTERPRISE (SOE) changeover. He also considered that in general the less senior, younger FIELD WORKERS moved into DOC and that its higher-ranked admin staff seemed to be from the NATIONAL PARKS service rather than ENVIRONMENTAL FORESTRY.

351: Responding to question, considers a NATIONAL PARK is for visitation (recreation) and says that until there’s a change in policy, all the NOXIOUS animals have to be removed. “Unless you change your attitude and say we can’t get rid of them (so) we might as well use them as a form of tourism.”

378: Uses as an example STEWART ISLAND’S specific pests and says there’s not much point in removing the DEER while there’s still a problem with (feral) CATS and RATS.

400: Poses the question: “What’s going to happen when we’ve got ten million of a population and a heck of a lot more mobility of people. The answer isn’t to put a cap on numbers; it’s to handle those numbers in some way and not destroy the point of interest.” (New Zealand’s population currently stands at four million.)

Interview closes

Tape 3 Side A stops

A second interview was conducted at MURRAY’S home on STEWART ISLAND on 16 OCTOBER 2004. This time, the main focus is on the hut building and track development of the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK during his tenure as CHIEF RANGER in the early 1960s.

Tape 3 Side B starts

008: Opens discussion explaining that when he first began the appointment, the use of HELICOPTERS for transporting materials had not quite caught on but once it did, it changed the face of the back country because it meant they could put HUTS in remote areas.

018: Believes that the HOLLYFORD TRACK, in particular, had an insufficient number of HUTS compared with the amount of foot traffic it carried. Adds that political undertones were emerging on the MILFORD TRACK because independent walkers believed they had rights as NEW ZEALANDERS to use it, while the THC was blocking their access.

028: So putting more HUTS on both TRACKS, he says, was the way to resolve both problems.

036: Replies that the HOLLYFORD was a popular TRACK, not least because of the work done previously by DAVID GUNN and his son MURRAY, and its usage had become greater than the number of bunks available in the HUTS provided.

049: States that the FNP in effect replaced the HUTS that had been built by DAVID GUNN putting them virtually in the same places with two exceptions - at ALABASTER (where there had been an old HUT for DAVIE’S personal use) and at the head of LAKE MCKERROW which, he says, had become a popular trout fishing site.

064: Says that at first they replaced the original HUT at the mouth of the river where it enters the LAKE, but ended up having to build another one higher up the track because of the not infrequent problems when the river flooded.

071: Mentions they also built a new HUT on the JAMESTOWN site because of its HISTORIC value. He later added that it was located at the HOKURI RIVER. Adds that it serviced TRAMPERS walking out to MARTINS BAY so there was no need to build a HUT at the very end of the TRACK.

093: Explains again that he introduced the practise of bringing materials and supplies into the PARK by AIRCRAFT because of the time-saving and consequently cost-cutting advantages.

111: On the physical building work, says the FNP RANGERS constructed the HUTS but he contracted a TE ANAU builder, JIMMY MORGAN, and two of his mates – DOUG ALLAN (who later became a fisherman) and someone whose first name was GEORGE but was nicknamed ‘SNOW’ – to clear the sites. Adds that was a major task, particularly because they were prevented from building the HUTS anywhere near the THC-owned ones. Later he said the hard part of this task was getting rid of the debris after cutting the clearing in the bush.

125: Replies that at first CANTERBURY AIRWORKS was the COMPANY with a HELICOPTER available for this type of work, until SOUTHERN SCENIC AIRWAYS (QUEENSTOWN) added HELICOPTERS to their fleets.

156: Responding to question, says the HUTS built on LAKES TE ANAU and MANAPOURI were positioned at easily accessible areas; some, he says, were linked to the activities of the DEERSTALKERS ASSOCIATION during the DEER CULLING era. As an addition, he said it had been part of the ASSOCIATION’S effort to CULL the undesirable RED DEER and RED HYBRID DEER from the WAPITI area in order to improve the trophy quality of the latter, while trying to protect the forest environment at the same time.

177: Mentions that at GEORGE SOUND, HUTS had already been built during WWI when MICA was extracted (near the HENRY SADDLE). Says the HUTS (from GEORGE SOUND to LAKE TE ANAU) needed to be upgraded.

182: States that the materials used included TANALISED TIMBER. Adds that one of his RANGERS, HAROLD JACOBS, was responsible for organising these supplies. He later added that JACOBS had the onerous job of making sure the development work went ahead on time once it was approved, a task that was easier said than done. States JACOBS was a trained carpenter and that he was in effect DEPUTY CHIEF RANGER and that he was in charge of the HUT building work.

204: Referring again to the MCKERROW HUT, says when HELICOPTERS were not available, they would use FLOAT PLANES, hooking the materials under the wings. Recalls that as they were preparing for take-off, he would tell the PILOTS to pretend they could hear nothing once they were airborne so that if something was forgotten, it was too bad. “Otherwise you’d end up with boxes o’ nails coming in when they’d forgotten something else (laughs).”

222: Explains that a 12-BUNK HUT took about a fortnight to build ready for use.

239: As to the ROUTEBURN TRACK, says the FNP did not build its HUTS, but might have put in the one at the first saddle on the GREENSTONE TRACK. Adds that the ROUTEBURN TRACK had already been established some years before by the TOURISM DEPARTMENT.

250: Replies that the FNP replaced the HUT at the head of LAKE MONOWAI, saying it was part of the old route going through to MANAPOURI. Adds that it was one of the main DEER CULLING bases.

264: Affirms that it was the same crew that put up that HUT as built the ones in the HOLLYFORD. Begins recalling some of their names: JIM DAVIES, PAT & LEN MCCONNELL (the TUATAPERE-based RANGERS), REX FEVER, HAROLD JACOBS, ERROL & PETER BROWN and PETER PLEW. He later included other people, some of whom are mentioned in the following pages apart from BLUE KING.

305: States that the decision for HUT placement rested with the FNP, no other organisation. Adds that it was his job to put specific recommendations to the BOARD outlining why HUTS were required at certain stages on the TRACKS. Admits that this was at a time when the BOARD had greater financial autonomy, before its decisions required approval from WELLINGTON.

322: Agrees that some of the other TRACKS, such as DUSKY, had originally been used by DEER HUNTERS but were becoming more popular among a wider group of users. The HUT at the SEAFORTH in DUSKY, he added, dated back to an attempts in the 1930s to build a road to MANAPOURI using prison labour and creating an anticipated centre for trophy MOOSE HUNTING.

335: Replies that the use of boats on some of the lakes such as LAKE ALABASTER was a later phenomenon brought about during the intensive DEER MEAT HUNTING period of the late 1960s and 1970s. He later qualified this statement saying that the practise evolved with the suitability of jet boat use by professional MEAT HUNTERS in the rivers and lakes. In tandem, sites were cleared for airstrips so that carcasses could be taken out by commercial flight operators such as SOUTHERN SCENIC or RITCHIES AIR SERVICE. Following a degree of uncertainty because of other commitments and weather (conditions) some HUNTERS bought and operated their own planes. This was followed by the same group switching to HELICOPTERS as it became necessary for them to HUNT over a wider area.

350: Responding to question, reiterates that the FOREST SERVICE (FS) was responsible for animal CONTROL within the PARK and as its ENVIRONMENTAL FORESTRY policy in FS-controlled land areas grew, it increasingly got involved in the long-term uses of FORESTRY MANAGEMENT. In due course, he said, those areas became FOREST PARKS; separate from the LANDS & SURVEY DEPARTMENT-controlled NATIONAL PARKS.

369: States that he ended up trying to present these ENVIRONMENTAL issues along with usage recommendations to the BOARD in order to “get things done”.

385: Recalls that within the BOARD itself, there was much division over usage particularly about HUNTING and the protection of the WAPITI herd in the PARK.

405: Talks about the DEERSTALKERS ASSOCIATION organising its own (sports) CULLS of RED DEER, “the theory being you shoot every animal except a WAPITI (laughs)”. Considers it proved unsuccessful with regard to protecting the FOREST ENVIRONMENT and explains why.

412: Adds that by the time HELICOPTERS were being used for DEER CULLING, he had left the FNP. He mentions again the controversy surrounding the BOARD’S decision to use only the one HELICOPTER COMPANY for the CULLING.

423: On their predictions of bed nights required at the FNP HUTS during the peak season, says it was a numbers game. “It was feel your way as you went and play with the money you had and that was the size of huts we could put in for a start.”

Tape 3 Side B stops

Tape 4 Side A starts

004: Continues discussion at end of previous tape.

031: Referring again to other people who worked in the PARK, for other organisations as well as his own FNP staff, says MAX KERSHAW was CHIEF RANGER for the FS and was based in QUEENSTOWN before moving to INVERCARGILL. Says they were “old enemies cross friends (laughs)”. Explains that KERSHAW was the one mentioned earlier from whom he poached the HAAST territory and put it into WESTLAND district when he worked there for FS.

050: Says MERV O’REILLY took over from him when he left WESTLAND to take up the FNP job.

053: Explains again that as its ENVIRONMENTAL DIVISION evolved, the FS became more involved in park/reserve management issues particularly human usage (e.g. sawmilling) which eventually became a “no-more territory” in the FNP where increasingly TRAMPING and HUNTING interests were taking over. He later clarified this saying that the basic difference between NATIONAL PARKS and FOREST PARKS was that the former had complete conservation protection and could be accessed only for viewing and recreational purposes. On the other hand, FOREST PARKS also encompassed sustainable commercial use (sawmilling, grazing or erosion control) where that could be safely permitted in balance with conservation and recreational needs

074: Continues that such thinking stimulated the NATIONAL PARK authorities to take the same approach when previously they had just put CARETAKERS into these areas.

097: On the division of work among his own staff, says the FNP was split into two areas; TUATAPERE and CLIFDEN was the base for everything south and including LAKE MONOWAI, while TE ANAU was the base for everything north of that.

104: Recalls there were also RANGERS specifically hired for their building skills. Says that because they were a mobile group, there was always one person based in the office at TE ANAU to deal with calls and the public.

119: Replies the office person was (HAZEL) HICKS (whose married name is now SMEATON) and that there were a total of nine RANGERS.

138: Affirms that their job was TRACK and HUT building only, not PEST CONTROL management. Quickly adds that they were also responsible for general ranging which he describes as “policing” of the area such as preventing the “slaughter of birds”, the misuse of plants and related matters.

169: Agrees that restricting some activities which had previously been carried out (such as the use of HUNTING DOGS in the PARK) was at first a difficult task. Adds that SPOTLIGHTING (a night-HUNTING practise) in popular recreation areas had to be curtailed.

182: Diplomacy and reasoned argument, he says, were the tools he used to resolve these types of thorny issues.

189: Admits that the ruling about no dogs being allowed in the PARK became a problem after it was reported that MURRAY GUNN had a dog at his home in the HOLLYFORD VALLEY. So, he says, he had to re-write the ruling to state that dogs in the PARK had to be on a leash.

212: Recalls drumming into his staff that if they caught anyone committing a misdemeanour for the first time then they were to be let off with just a warning. Explains that it was a lesson he learned in his earlier days up north and explains the basic principles.

241: Prompted by interviewer, remembers JOHN GARDNER joined his staff as a trainee RANGER.

247: Mentions that as CHIEF RANGER, he effectively picked his own crew and that he hired those who had “knocked around the back country a lot” so that they could talk to the locals better.

254: On this same topic, recalls that REX FEVER had been a friend of HAROLD JACOBS. Says REX was a bit of a “badge polisher for a while” but had jokingly later admitted to MURRAY that he must have been “a pain in the b---- neck” when he first started.

265: Prompted again, remembers MURRAY CARDNO, as a carpenter on the team. “Anyone that can build a boat, a HUT’s a piece o’ cake (laughs) because all the lines are straight.”

273: Admits that CARDNO “took a wee bit of settling in” because, as with FEVER, he was not a back countryman but had come to TE ANAU from a more urban setting. “He became a natural…very quickly.” He later added that both men became very competent operators.

292: Recalls some of the SOUTHERN SCENIC FLOATPLANE PILOTS, including TEX SMITH and REX DOVEY. Adds that he had contracted them (along with their boss POPEYE LUCAS) earlier for back country work in NELSON, MARLBORLOUGH and WESTLAND and that they had become very skilled at this “extreme form of piloting”.

311: Replies that he had a good working relationship with IAN RITCHIE (of RITCHIES AIR SERVICES) apart from one occasion when he’d insisted that it should be RITCHIE who piloted the aircraft RAS was using during a search and rescue mission at the head of NANCY SOUND. At that time, he later said, one of RITCHIE’S employees, BILL BLACK, had not been flying long so he’d considered it would have been most unfair to expect BLACK to pull off a “very tricky exercise”.

326: Talks about the FISHING industry which he says was centred around catching BLUE COD until the mid-1950s. Thereafter, he continues, CRAYFISHING began to expand and this meant greater exploration around the coast and the fiords.

341: Says when the bonanza for fishing in the CHATHAMS occurred in the 1960s, these same men were “naturals” for it. So wherever you went, he adds, it was the same FISHERMEN that you met and compares them with the men of the back country on the land before the days of improved roads and communication links.

350: Agrees that there is no back country left to explore or to live in, except perhaps the AUCKLAND ISLANDS which, he laughs, have had a block put around them to prevent fishing of their immediate shores.

359: Interview ends

Tape 4 Side A stops

The following additional comment about the fishing industry was later submitted by MURRAY: As the commercial industry of Blue Cod Fishing gave way to that of Rock Lobster potting and the freezing of catches on board their vessels in the mid-1950s, the more adventurous fishermen began exploring the Fiordland waters further and further afield. Time spent offshore was controlled by re-fuelling and off-loading needs at Milford (Sound) or having to return to Bluff or Riverton. This isolation was what created the last of the real “back country” of New Zealand’s history. It essentially lasted into the 1980s as the isolation and individualism (of the fishermen) were eroded bit by bit by radio, floatplanes, helicopters, unloading facilities, the shift from frozen tails to live fish sales, tourist boats etc. These replaced the distant loneliness of the surroundings that the fishermen actually thought of as home. In most cases, the (fishermen’s) wives reared the children back in Bluff, Riverton, Stewart Island, Port Chalmers and Moeraki and later Te Anau after the secondary school (Fiordland College) was established (in 1976). However, once the children were reared and educated, many of the wives joined their husbands as crew. It (fishing) became very much its own world, for the most part shunned by the authorities until more recently when it has been re-discovered. Murray Schofield