Interviewer: Morag Forrester

Abstractor: Morag Forrester

Tape counter: Sony TCM 939

Tape 1 Side A

006: Gives his full name as CLIFFORD HENRY BARNES and that he was born on 20 DECEMBER 1934 in INVERCARGILL.

015: His PARENTS, he says, moved from INVERCARGILL to a farm block at GREENHILLS in 1935 so that was where he and his siblings were brought up.

018: Replies that his FATHER was ALFRED HENRY BARNES who came from SEDDON near BLENHEIM in 1921. After farming on BLUFF STATION near MARLBOROUGH, the family moved to WOODLANDS, SOUTHLAND.

037: Recalls when he was very young that his GRANDMOTHER BARNES visited the family once, adding that his GRANDFATHER BARNES died around the time he (the participant) was born.

047: States his FATHER was a farmer but went on to become a BLADE SHEARER and had also been an OYSTERMAN in BLUFF, working up to twenty seasons on the OYSTER BOATS including throughout the war years (WWII).

062: In those days, he says, there were about nine OYSTER BOATS working out of BLUFF. Adds that he remembers when the vessels were steam driven. He also recalls the men bringing the OYSTERS into port and putting them in OYSTER BEDS to keep them fresh.

069: Continues that the BED HANDS put the OYSTERS in bags which were sent north by rail.

072: Says the work was seasonal – from FEBRUARY to NOVEMBER. The men worked full-time and in those days there were no limits on the amount they could catch.

078: His MOTHER, he says, was AMY PATRICIA (née KELLY) - one of a large family from NIGHTCAPS (about a dozen CHILDREN) and that her FATHER was employed as a BLACKSMITH at the MORLEY MINE at OHAI.

089: Says his GRANDFATHER KELLY also had his own business at which he did work such as shoeing horses.

094: Affirms that he knew those GRANDPARENTS quite well, adding that he used to stay with them during the SCHOOL vacations when he was expected to help out on their smallholding where they ran a few DAIRY COWS.

098: Explains that he was not much younger than his UNCLES and AUNTS from that family and that as far as milking COWS was concerned, he was quite used to it since he’d had to do so at home.

107: “Milking was just a daily chore...they used to milk up to about thirty COWS – hand-milked them – and then we’d deliver the milk around NIGHTCAPS and TINKERTOWN.”

119: At home, he recalls that his MOTHER would separate the milk to make butter.

124: Explains that the deliveries meant carrying two-gallon milk cans to the back door of each house and doling out the required amount into the empty containers.

131: Replies that it seemed to take hours to complete the delivery round. “My earlier recollection of this was doing it on a horse and cart.” Later, his GRANDFATHER drove a modified HILLMAN car which carried two big milk cans (40 gallon-size) from which he (the participant) poured the milk into the smaller cans.

146: Says that during the SCHOOL holidays, milking took place twice a day – early in the morning and in the evening.

156: States that he was the eldest BOY among ELEVEN CHILDREN, with two older SISTERS. Adds that all but one CHILD survived into adulthood: TERRENCE, who died, was one of a set of TWINS and had contracted PNEUMONIA at the age of about four months.

190: Having mentioned there was the usual amount of rough and tumble that occurs in any large family, he says that on the whole they lived quite well probably because they were on a FARM and able to produce their own milk and butter.

197: Although his early years saw the end of the GREAT DEPRESSION, he does not recall the family suffering much hardship although his MOTHER had told him it was one reason they moved from town to a FARM – to become self-sufficient for basic needs.

203: He began his schooling, he says, at GREENHILLS PRIMARY SCHOOL, mentioning that he had to walk the three-mile distance (about 6ks) there and back each day until the family underwent another move which meant they lived nearer the SCHOOL.

214: Recalls it was a two-teacher SCHOOL and that his older SISTERS attended it at the same time as he did, while the younger ones came along later after he’d left.

230: When he reached STANDARD THREE (aged about eleven), he says, he attended the MARIST SCHOOL in INVERCARGILL, travelling daily on the BLUFF train.

256: His secondary education, he continues, (STANDARD SIX onwards), was at the TECHNICAL COLLEGE in INVERCARGILL. He recalls it was about 1947, the same year as the POLIO(MYELITIS) scare so he didn’t start until about MAY of that year (instead of FEBRUARY).

272: Says he left SCHOOL at the end of 1949 (having just turned fifteen years old). Recalls that during that summer, he worked on a FARM at ORETI, until he started his apprenticeship as a FITTER/TURNER (WELDING) in JANUARY 1950.

283: ENGINEERING, he explains, had always been of interest to him especially being surrounded by FARM machinery at home.

291: His apprenticeship, he says, was in the MARINE SHOP, INVERCARGILL.

301: Referring to his first visit to the TE ANAU BASIN, he says it was in 1945 when his FATHER was SHEARING at various STATIONS (SHEEP RUNS), including MARAROA, BURWOOD and THE PLAINS.

318: Says he was TAR BOY – he had to put disinfecting TAR on SHEEP that were accidentally cut. It was at a time, he adds, when BLADE SHEARING was the norm.

326: Explains a little what that method of SHEARING was like. The men worked separately in the SHEARING SHED, using instruments that were like large scissors and which were sharpened against a stone. A good BLADE SHEARER, he says, could get through 200 SHEEP a day.

340: Some of the SHEEP, he continues, sustained quite extensive cuts and any gaping wounds were stitched together using a needle and twine and then lathered with liquid TAR laced with disinfectant.

346: Recalls that at the SHEARING SHED at MARAROA the board was double-sided but he only remembers one side being used with six SHEARERS in a row.

351: Affirms the SHED was less noisy than when ELECTRIC SHEARING was introduced a few years later. “You didn’t have the noise of the machines, just the click of the SHEARS.”

354: Remembers that part of his duties was to help the LAND GIRL during work breaks. “We’d have to lump all these fresh scones and buckets of tea (from the HOMESTEAD) down to the WOOLSHED for them to have their morning teas and afternoon teas.”

360: At MARAROA, he says that as well as the six SHEARERS there were three WOOLPRESSERS, a couple of SHEPHERDS and the TAR BOY.

371: Recalls MAUD and MYRTLE PATERSON from MOSSBURN helped out; one in the HOMESTEAD and one as a LAND GIRL (FARM duties). “That was in the days when they were short of labour (due to the men of the district being away during WWII).

376: The RUNHOLDER, JOHN COCKBURN (JACK), he remembers as being quite an old man who was a bachelor living in AUSTRALIA. “He was into FESCUE (a type of grass seed) too in those days.”

386: Mentions the BRADLEYS whose GRANDFATHER, he thinks, was a SHEPHERD at MARAROA. BURT (BRADLEY), he says, was a PRESSER and ALAN (BRADLEY) was a SHEARER.

393: Returning to 1945, he says accommodation was provided for the SHEARERS on the property. There was a COOKHOUSE which, he says, still had the old bread-making ovens used in previous years.

400: Alongside it, he continues, there were various SHEPHERDS HUTS, some of which were quite big with six or eight bunks. All their meals, he says, were served at the HOMESTEAD.

404: “Don’t think there was too much showering in those days as I recall. There was a CREEK through the back of the HUTS that was the runoff from the waterwheel that used to charge the batteries for the farmhouse and I can recall washing in that occasionally.”

411: Replies there were quite a few DEER on the property in 1945 and that they used to go shooting at night. His FATHER, he says, was a keen DEERSTALKER, adding that he remembers accompanying him to the DALE, which was the next valley along from MARAROA.

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005: Continuing the discussion about his FATHER working in the TE ANAU BASIN, he says it was seasonal work over a number of years through the 1940s.

016: Says that after he began his (FITTER/TURNER) apprenticeship, he used to go DEER HUNTING in the TE ANAU area with friends.

027: Although he cannot remember what a SHEARER was paid in the mid-1940s, he says it must have been quite good money because they didn’t lack for anything at home and he also remembers his FATHER had his own MOTORBIKE on which they travelled to MARAROA.

039: However, the first year he accompanied his FATHER (1945), they went by train to MOSSBURN and were met by JACK COCKBURN who took them the rest of the journey by CAR.

048: It was a day-long journey, he says, to reach MARAROA from INVERCARGILL. “The roads were all gravel in those days and pretty bumpy too.”

060: After the MOTORBIKE, he says, his FATHER progressed to a CAR but never one that carried more than one or two passengers.

066: Replies that during those earlier years in the district, he recalls visiting TE ANAU on a few occasions when his FATHER stopped at the hotel: “I can remember having a sarsaparilla (tonic-flavoured lemonade) sitting in the CAR under the BLUEGUMS out by the lake at TE ANAU…that’s my earliest recollections.”

077: Another early memory, he says, was visiting MANAPOURI on NEW YEAR’S DAY (1945 or 1946) in the LAND GIRL’S CAR (a 1937 AUSTIN 7).

089: Arriving at MANAPOURI, he says, there were about half a dozen holidaymakers at the GLADE CAMP. “They had a little old LAUNCH (the PILGRIM) there taking people out on trips (on LAKE MANAPOURI).”

096: To reach MANAPOURI, he replies, they drove over the WILDERNESS to THE KEY where they took the BLACKMOUNT ROAD.

106: The road, he says, seemed more like a couple of wheel ruts through the manuka and they met no other vehicles throughout the seemingly long journey.

114: The only building at MANAPOURI, he recalls, was MURRELLS (GRANDVIEW) GUESTHOUSE apart from a “very odd building” at the old STEAMER WHARF (at the mouth of the WAIAU RIVER) from where the LAUNCH set out across the lake.

130: Referring to COMPULSORY MILITARY TRAINING (post-war NATIONAL SERVICE to ensure youths experienced some army training), he says he was in the 12th intake (1953). He clearly remembers it because it was the same year that the newly crowned QUEEN ELIZABETH II visited the BURNHAM MILITARY CAMP during her tour of NEW ZEALAND.

143: Remembers that to prepare for the visit “we slogged for weeks…training with rifles, presenting salute arms and all the rest of it”.

150: Replies that CMT enforced army discipline over three months. Adds that because he had a trade, he joined the ELECTRICAL and MECHANICAL ENGINEERS (EME).

180: In explaining that there was no option but to undertake the training, he says they arrived at BURNHAM in “civvies”, were issued uniforms and a rifle and after being allocated quarters training began immediately.

190: On completion of CMT, he says he returned to finish his apprenticeship at the MARINE SHOP in INVERCARGILL. However, each year for the next three years, he had to do a further six weeks CMT (every weekend) at the SHOWGROUNDS in INVERCARGILL.

210: Following his apprenticeship, he says he first worked as a labourer/ENGINEER for a bridge-building company, replacing some of SOUTHLAND’S wooden bridges with concrete ones.

216: But, he continues, he was waiting for work to become available on a CRAYFISHING BOAT (out of BLUFF). His wait was not long since he was employed as an ENGINEER on the MARJORY MAUD – a 65ft TRAWLER built in AUSTRALIA.

224: Describes the owner, CURLY BOYD, as a well-known BLUFF character and says he worked for him for about four years until he came ashore due to FAMILY commitments and got a job on the OYSTER BOATS.

241: Explains that the CRAYFISHING INDUSTRY was at its height in the mid-1950s and was in decline by the later part of the same decade, which was another reason he decided to get out of it.

246: The CRAYFISH, he continues, was exported to the UNITED STATES. It was all TAILED at sea, he says, being caught in TIMBER CRAYPOTS.

251: These, he says, were made from 2X1 TIMBERS, nailed together and covered in wire netting. Each SKIPPER, he explains, had his own preference for size of CRAYPOT.

257: Generally, he replies, a POT measured 3ft (height) X 3ft (width) X 18ins (depth) and could contain up to fifty CRAYFISH at any one time.

262: FIORDLAND was the main “potting” ground, he says, although his vessel mostly worked in the southern region between DUSKY SOUND and PRESERVATION INLET. Around the SOLANDER ISLANDS was another favourite, he adds.

268: Explains that they put BAIT in the POTS before SETTING them in the water and then checked them at least once, sometimes twice, a day working with about sixty POTS on average.

274: Answers that they had to catch their own BAIT, which they did after checking all the POTS. It included BLUE COD, GROPER, and SHARK and mostly they used hand lines.

283: Particularly in the southern areas, he says, they caught “giant CRAYFISH, probably four, five, six pound TAILS…eight or nine kilos…they were huge some of the FISH”.

288: Says that TAILING them on board meant they threw the bodies over the side. The TAILS then had to be scrubbed in sea water, drained and bagged. At first, LINEN bags were used until they were made obsolete by plastic ones.

293: In more recent years, he states, the market has been for LIVE CRAYFISH.

294: To keep them fresh, he replies, the TAILS were frozen on board as the BOAT had a large freezer so that they were able to carry up to ten tons (imperial measurements – 20cwt = 1ton [ 50.8kg]) of TAILS.

306: They returned to BLUFF, he says, when they had either filled the freezer or run out of fuel or food.

310: While he’s not sure how many others were CRAYFISHING out of BLUFF, he says there were about 150 BOATS along the south coast from PORT CHALMERS, STEWART ISLAND and BLUFF. All of them had access to the coast as there were no FISHING QUOTAS in place at that time.

315: The only restrictions, he explains, were “females in berry” and anything under a regulation length which was at least a six-inch TAIL.

323: Although he cannot recall the prices fetched, he says they made very good money from CRAYFISHING. “There certainly wasn’t anything around that would compare with it back then and the harder you worked of course, the more you made.”

331: Affirms that a system existed in which some BOAT owners leased their vessels to FISHING CREWS at a profit-taking fee. He says that in the earlier days, a lot of FISHERMEN could not afford to own a boat and some FISHING firms would set them up so that eventually they could earn enough to buy one.

338: Using his former BOSS as an example, he says, CURLY BOYD had been a butcher at the OCEAN BEACH FREEZING WORKS and had gone into partnership with another BLUFF resident on a FISHING BOAT. But the partner would not go out FISHING as often as expected, so CURLY began going instead and eventually paid off that VESSEL and progressed to a larger one.

360: Working for several weeks at a stretch, he recalls they faced some formidable seas at times, adding that once they were into the fiords they could seek shelter within reasonably close distance.

363: Mentions one experience when they almost lost the BOAT but instead only lost part of the WHEELHOUSE.

367: Says the western coastline, however, was the scene of regular wreckages and that he knew several FISHERMEN who lost their lives.

374: Referring back to his FAMILY life, he says he married IRENE ROSSLYN (née ALLAN) in BLUFF (in 1957) and that they bought their first home in the town (36 MCDOUGALL ST) after being able to secure a bank overdraft.

382: Replies that he and IRENE met through attending local events such as (RUGBY) FOOTBALL matches or social dances. “She’s a BLUFF girl, born and bred, so we were in the same social circles.”

406: Their honeymoon, he says, was travelling around the SOUTH ISLAND by CAR which he owned. “A VAUXHALL WYVERN…I was quite proud of that CAR.” As he mentions, CARS were not easy to procure in the 1950s and as a result, they were expensive. The major problem was the cost of importing VEHICLES into NEW ZEALAND from the main markets of EUROPE and the US).

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010: States that he and IRENE stayed in BLUFF until 1963 when they decided to move to MANAPOURI after he had spent about three years working in the OYSTER INDUSTRY.

025: Mentions that the MANAPOURI HYDRO POWER SCHEME PROJECT had just got underway.

042: Although he had just started work at an ENGINEERING firm in BLUFF, he says, he contacted the owner/operator of the MANAPOURI DOUBTFUL SOUND TOURIST COMPANY (MDST), LES HUTCHINS, enquiring about employment possibilities.

046: Shortly afterwards, he continues, HUTCHINS offered him a job as ENGINEER.

053: Accommodation, he recalls, was not easy to find in MANAPOURI. “In fact, I can remember IRENE in tears the day we arrived and she’d seen the house that she was expected to live in.” It was just before CHRISTMAS, 1963.

062: By then, he says, they had three CHILDREN; ROSSLYN, DEBBIE and CRAIG.

090: Explaining further his reasons for taking the MDST job saying that the SKIPPER of the OYSTER BOAT on which he had been CREW wanted to go CRAYFISHING further up the WEST COAST.

103: As the CRAYFISH stocks had depleted by then, he says, he knew it would not be financially viable for all five CREW to work on the BOAT. That, along with his family responsibilities, meant he took a job onshore with BLUFF ENGINEERING.

111: But an offer to work in the attractive setting of MANAPOURI was appealing, especially as it seemed more opportunities were likely to emerge in light of the HYDRO SCHEME going ahead.

127: His job as ENGINEER for MDST was to maintain and repair the company’s fleet of vessels. He also mentions that the MINISTRY of (PUBLIC) WORKS had just taken over the rights for the DOUBTFUL SOUND TRACK and had paid the HUTCHINS compensation for doing so. This was the lynchpin of the MDST business – the four-day tramp into DOUBTFUL SOUND and back to MANAPOURI staying at DEEP COVE lodge. It, along with the track, was compulsorily purchased by the government under the PUBLIC WORKS ACT in order for a road to be built over the WILMOT PASS.

136: Says that in 1963 MDST had a couple of BOATS on LAKE MANAPOURI and a couple of JETBOATS. His job, he adds, was as ENGINEER/LAUNCHMASTER so he ran some of the LAUNCHES.

143: The company, he says, already employed a couple of LAUNCHMASTERS – BOB HICKS and BILL DEE. And the VESSELS were the PILGRIM (inherited from the MDST’S former owner, LES MURRELL), the SEA PRINCE (inherited from the purchase of the SEA PRINCE LAKE SERVICE from ROY MCDONALD) and the WELLINGTON-based ELAINE which HUTCHINS bought in 1956.

160: The JETBOATS, he continues, were the MISS MANAPOURI and the MISS MANAPOURI II which were used as WATER-TAXIS.

174: Replies that the MISS MANAPOURI was the first JETBOAT to be used in FIORDLAND. “LES was always pretty forward thinking and he’d hopped into the JETBOATING.”With the MISS MANAPOURI, the company began JETBOAT services in 1960 and the vessel, which could take six passengers was used for tourist and charter work to WEST ARM and down the WAIAU RIVER to LAKE MONOWAI before the MARAROA DAM was built (another HYDRO-ELECTRIC PROJECT).

181: Says that shortly afterwards, the TE ANAU-based company, FIORDLAND TRAVEL, also began JETBOAT services.

190: Explains that while FIORDLAND TRAVEL ran trips on the UPPER WAIAU, the MDST was running trips down the LOWER WAIAU. It was a twenty-minute trip to the HORSESHOE BEND and a half-hour trip took passengers over the rapids at the confluence of the MARAROA and WAIAU RIVERS (where the WEIR was later built).

197: Says he once travelled all the way to the sea from LAKE MANAPOURI down the WAIAU to its mouth before the DAM was constructed.

206: Recalls he was paid 10shillings/hour flat rate when he first joined the MDST and often had to work up to fifteen hours a day.

218: But as revenue rolled in from the HYDRO SCHEME, he says, his wages improved.

228: Mentions that the MDST purchased FIORDLAND TRAVEL in 1966 (previously owned jointly by LAWSON BURROWS, WILSON CAMPBELL and ROBBIE ROBB) and eventually adopted that name for the company. (In recent years, FIORDLAND TRAVEL again changed names to REAL JOURNEYS.)

233: Explains that as time progressed he gained promotion to OPERATIONS MANAGER and then GENERAL MANAGER.

239: Says that he was responsible for towing by barge much of the heavy machinery that was used during the construction work on the HYDRO SCHEME. The first barge built for such use was manufactured by GOUGH BROS of INVERCARGILL although BLUFF ENGINEERING had built the FUEL BARGE (with tank compartments).

257: He also took the first machinery into SOUTH ARM to start the road from there to MONOWAI as well as BARGING a lot of equipment into WEST ARM. Adds that all the heavy trucks had to be loaded up on the beach at MANAPOURI and then carried across the lake by BARGE where the materials would be unloaded.

288: The anxious moments, he says, were during the loading and unloading of these trucks on and off the BARGES with some of the bulldozers weighing up to 25tonnes. In order to get them onto the beach, the trucks had to be manoeuvred onto wooden planks.

271: As the SCHEME drew to a close, he continues, some “clapped out machinery” was being brought out and either had to be pushed or winched onto the BARGE.

280: Replies that he worked on his own on the tugs that pulled the BARGES, adding that there were no lights on the lake to warn against any rocky or sandy points. In those pre-control-gate-days he adds the WAIAU RIVER would often be in full flood.

292: Explains that he would load up with fuel from a BULK FUEL TANK at the GLADE CAMPING GROUND – a task which could take several hours and then set off late in the afternoon for WEST ARM, taking about three hours when towing a loaded BARGE.

305: It could take up to five hours, he says, for the barge to be unloaded after which he would do the return trip sometimes not getting into MANAPOURI until midnight.

310: Replies that it was often more by good luck than management that he returned without incident especially as he only had a spotlight to guide him through the dark. On very bad nights, he adds, he would use the TUG’s compass.

327: The ELAINE, he says, was the main tow-BOAT in the early days. Mentions that MURRAY FIELDS, a shipwright from BLUFF, did much of the repair work for LES HUTCHINS and that he had strengthened the vessel with support timbers.

345: Referring to PEARL HARBOUR, he affirms it was not as it is today. There were a lot of pleasure craft, he says, mainly because the owners left them tied up at their moorings. Nowadays, he adds, the owners arrive with their BOAT towed on the back of a 4WD, go out on the water, then tow it away again.

354: Recalls that there was a shed/office and only one decent wharf which had been constructed in the 1940s for the SEA PRINCE. There was a gravel road to the harbour with limited vehicular access, especially for tourist buses. “Used to have do a bit of a jig and a shuffle to get turned around.”

364: There were also a couple of baches near the wharf, he says, naming the MOSEBYS as one of the owners. Mentions what was known as the “red crib” which was used as staff quarters for single people employed by the MDST.

374: The settlement had only a few baches so they quickly got to know who was coming and going. Of the permanent dwellers, he says there were ALICE and BURTON MURRELL who ran the GRANDVIEW GUEST HOUSE, VERA SPARGO in GLADE CAMP and JIM MCGHIE who worked as a fencing contractor. Previously, MCGHIE had been in partnership with ROY MCDONALD on the SEA PRINCE LAKE SERVICE before it was sold to the HUTCHINS. JACK MURRELL, he says, was running the local store. He again mentions BOB HICKS who was senior LAUNCHMASTER for the MDST.

399: Replies that in the early 1960s, apart from the main road (CATHEDRAL DRIVE) and MURRELL AVENUE there was also VIEW ST and most of HOME ST, mentioning BILLY BELL who was a carpenter by trade and had built his own home there.

406: Referring again to the office building at PEARL HARBOUR, he says it was constructed in 1965 and that while he helped out, it was CES FLAUS, who actually built it.

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A second interview was held at the participant’s home in MANAPOURI on 8/AUGUST/2006.

014: On the effects of the government’s HYDRO PROJECT on the MDST’S operations, he replies that in 1963 people had not yet comprehended what would happen if the government went ahead and raised the levels of both LAKES MANAPOURI and TE ANAU.

021: Recalls that it was not until 1965 that the campaign against raising the lakes got underway.

040: Describes LES HUTCHINS as “JOHNNY-on-the-spot” with the FIORDLANDER I, which was launched as a TOURIST vessel in DECEMBER 1963. It, he says, was a fast boat for its time and could carry about eighty passengers.

049: By 1964, he says, the vessel was never running cold with the number of trips it was running to bring workers to and from the on-site camp at WEST ARM. The ENDEAVOUR and the RESOLUTION had not been built by then – they came on stream later when UTAH CONSTRUCTION was responsible for building the POWER STATION and needed access for its workers to and from WEST ARM. The ENDEAVOUR was launched in 1965 and the RESOLUTION in 1966 and were owned by the MINISTRY of WORKS, under UTAH CONSTRUCTION and MINING (UCM). The same applied with the TUG, HUSTLER, and BARGES built by SIMS ENGINEERING of DUNEDIN.

090: He admits that as the construction work took hold, the FIORDLANDER I was carrying both workers and visitors even though there were not many of the latter before the TOURIST CENTRE was built at WEST ARM.

109: Affirms that the MDST was the only company with an operating licence to take the project workers to and from the site.

130: Says that was the company’s salvation in the early days of the HYDRO POWER site construction.

136: The government, he says, built two FIORDLANDER class vessels and the MDST was also operating those. By then, he says, the company had changed its name to FIORDLAND TRAVEL, adopting the title of the TE ANAU-based tourist launch operator it took over in 1966.

144: Says the staff was expected to run the BARGES and personnel BOATS day and night as required. Some of the other SKIPPERS he recalls were SIMON VOGEL and MARU BRADSHAW who had previously worked for the BLUFF HARBOUR BOARD and in later years SKIPPERED the TSS EARNSLAW in QUEENSTOWN.

189: To reach WEST ARM, he says, it was possible to go by aircraft. UTAH WILLIAMSON BURNETT brought in a GRUMMEN MALLARD – a 14-seater amphibious plane for access to DEEP COVE prior to the completion of the road in 1966.

170: Also mentions there was a CESSNA FLOATPLANE made available through SOUTHERN SCENIC AIRWAYS which serviced both WEST ARM and DEEP COVE.

179: Completion of the WILMOT PASS road to he says, made a big difference. Explains that UTAH WILLIAMSON BURNETT (UWB) had to bring in all the heavy equipment at first by sea, then later was able to transport it to MANAPOURI, take it by barge to WEST ARM then over the WILMOT PASS to DEEP COVE.

190: UWB bought its own BARGE and FIORDLAND TRAVEL bought a TUG boat, WAIOMANA (in AUCKLAND) to tow the BARGE. Says he was the ENGINEER for the boat on its six-day journey from AUCKLAND down the east coast to BLUFF. From there, it was transported by road to MANAPOURI.

206: Explains that the WAIOMANA did not have a lot of deck space but was able to push BARGES weighing about 200 tons (imperial weight). On rough weather trips, he says, the BARGES were pulled on tow lines.

213: But, he recalls, all the TUGS were single-handed (i.e. one SKIPPER) and the operator would be reluctant to let go of the BARGE at all because he would have to haul in the heavy tow-line. Instead, he would run the TUG alongside the BARGE, which he suggests was probably a dangerous move, particularly in the dark, and manoeuvre it into a wharf or onto a beach.

223: Does not recall any fatal accidents occurring but “probably a lot of near-misses – more than we would probably ever know about” because a lot of the towing was done at night.

227: Explains the reason for that was due to materials being loaded onto trucks from the MOSSBURN railway depot, driven to MANAPOURI and loaded onto the BARGE late in the afternoon.

234: As far as he is aware, he says, there was only one marine accident during the entire period of the construction of the SCHEME and that involved a collision between a WATER-TAXI and a night-shift boat near WEST ARM. The SKIPPER of the former, MERVYN VERCOE, he says, drowned.

247: Referring to the materials being shipped to WEST ARM, he replies that these included everything from all necessary food stores, building supplies, machinery, spare parts, vehicles – the lot.

258: Explains that cranes were later used for lifting the materials on and off the BARGES, but in the earlier years it was all man-handled.

261: Mentions a local company, MANAPOURI HAULAGE, was sub-contracted by UBM to transport most of the materials. It was owned by CLIFF BENNETT and TOM HEDLEY who operated MOSSBURN TRANSPORT.

277: However, UWB had its own DUMPTRUCKS at WEST ARM, he says.

280: The PROJECT, he adds, was so big that most of the local contractors did not have suitable equipment to hand so UWB had to bring in its own.

287: Despite a huge influx of workers living in the purpose-built HYDRO VILLAGE outside MANAPOURI, there was little effect on the local community. “We didn’t even have our own hotel then, and of course, there was none at the VILLAGE.”

292: However, a local service station and a supermarket were installed at the HYDRO VILLAGE and the main road to TE ANAU was tar-sealed (SH 95). “It didn’t change MANAPOURI much at all.”

303: What did have an impact was the increased public interest on the SAVE OUR LAKES campaign. TOURISTS, he says, didn’t have access to DEEP COVE till UWB had finished the contracts. But there was an increasing number of people interested in visiting the SCHEME.

310: Initially, he says, BECHTEL PACIFIC CORPORATION (BPC) (the government’s overseers of the SCHEME) organised the installation of a TOURIST CENTRE on the side of the hill at WEST ARM but only days before it was opened to the public, it was buried under a pile of rubble from a landslip.

316: However BPC built a causeway on the south side of WEST ARM BAY and put in a TOURIST CENTRE with a WHARF. From then on, he says, FTL put on a daily sailing from MANAPOURI to WEST ARM.

330: Replies that on BOB HICKS’ days off as SKIPPER of the FIORDLANDER I, he often was the stand-in. And in the very early days, he says, he used to run the SEA PRINCE to STOCKYARD COVE (on the western side of HOPE ARM).

336: Says the trip involved a picnic lunch prepared by the HUTCHINS and which, depending on the weather, was taken on the beach at STOCKYARD COVE. This was followed by an hour-long walk along a track at HOPE ARM before returning to MANAPOURI.

352: The TOURIST season in the 1960s was quite short compared with nowadays, starting in NOVEMBER and closing at EASTER.

372: At mention of what were known as ‘Z-BOATS’, he says they were not introduced until the PROJECT was well underway. Explains two were built in INVERCARGILL. They were government-owned WATER-TAXIS operated by FTL for workers housed at the HYDRO VILLAGE.

396: States that there were up to fifty SKIPPERS in the district at the height of the SCHEME because FTL was operating 24 hours a day in a seven-day-week. He later corrected this figure to about twelve SKIPPERS in total. Once the VILLAGE was established, a HARBOUR and floating WHARVES were built at SUPPLY BAY for the workers’ vessels.

408: FTL operated the launch service on the mostly government-owned vessels. Therefore, he says, FTL employed all the SKIPPERS and staff on the BOATS.

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007: Continuing the discussion about staff at FTL, he says the number of employees in the WORKSHOP quickly increased. Adds that the WORKSHOP at first was situated under the TOURIST office at PEARL HARBOUR but was later moved to a site at HOME CREEK.

063: Says ALF HAWKINS, from BALCLUTHA, was the first FOREMAN at the WORKSHOP while also remembering another, DAVY GRIBBON, who came from NELSON.

078: There were a further half dozen MECHANICS, he says and when FTL later won approval to take on an apprentice, it employed TIC PAULIN as well as JACK LINDSAY.

097: Replies that FTL was allocated houses in VIEW ST to accommodate some of its staff while a lot of the SKIPPERS lived at the HYDRO VILLAGE. There was also the FTL's single-persons quarters at PEARL HARBOUR.

125: Describes as a “milestone”, the taking over of the TE ANAU operator, FIORDLAND TRAVEL.

131: Explains that there were more FIORDLANDER vessels in production for the HUTCHINS when they took over FIORDLAND TRAVEL. Calculates that in total there were about six such vessels built in INVERCARGILL under a craft design created by AUCKLANDER, GERRY BREEKVELDT.

140: Describes them as excellent vessels because they could carry a number of passengers (about 80) and were also seaworthy which suited the choppy lake conditions.

148: Replies that at that time (1960s), the vessels cost about £30,000 each to build.

156: Says all the vessels that were included in the purchase of the TE ANAU company were “pretty rundown and needed rejuvenating”, which was partly why the HUTCHINS managed to acquire the company because the FIORDLANDER II was being built in INVERCARGILL.

180: Provides some background to the SS TAWERA at the time of the takeover saying that the TE ANAU company had wanted to use the vessel for its CAVES run. In those days, the journey to and from GLADE HOUSE began and ended at TE ANAU, leaving at about 3pm after the arrival of the NZ ROAD SERVICES coach. Says this would have left the THC without a suitable launch for the GLADE HOUSE run, so LES HUTCHINS offered the nearly completed FIORDLANDER II.

198: “One thing led to another…LES finished up making an offer for FIORDLAND TRAVEL…and it was accepted.”

205: Mentions that it was DECEMBER when the purchase was signed up and that within days, he was among the staff recruited to drive one of three 1942-vintage NZ ARMY SCAMMEL TRACTORS from CHRISTCHURCH to TE ANAU. Two were operational vehicles and the third was used for spare parts. They each cost £500 and the other drivers were CES GREANEY, BILL BELL and LES HUTCHINS.

210: Another purchase was a TRAILER, bought from ERIC MOEN, on which he (the participant) put a CRADLE so that the FIORDLANDER I could be transported each day between MANAPOURI and TE ANAU for the CAVES run.

223: This meant, he continues, that the SS TAWERA carried on with its usual GLADE HOUSE run at first from TE ANAU and not long afterwards from the WHARF at TE ANAU DOWNS.

227: That WHARF, he says, was constructed from surplus ventilation pipes for the tunnelling at DEEP COVE. “We constructed it all ourselves at the WORKSHOP at MANAPOURI…designed it and constructed it.”

234: Mentions that when the SS TAWERA was running from TE ANAU, it sometimes didn’t get home till about one or two in the morning.

238: Calculates that the WHARF at TE ANAU DOWNS was built in the late 1960s, remembering that he was responsible for buying the surplus piping material from DEEP COVE. He replies that he negotiated with the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARKS BOARD about the actual land on which the WHARF was built. Person recorded: Cliff Barnes

256: Does not recall any major hitches in the application for a concession to construct the WHARF (the land being part of the NATIONAL PARK), although there had been some doubts about it being capable of withstanding the gale force winds that sweep through the bay.

261: However, he considers the WHARF has proved its worth over the years adding that it cut by half the journey time to and from GLADE HOUSE (he explains this at about 294 on the tape).

287: Replies that the SS TAWERA continued operating that service until she was decommissioned in 1997.

284: For the CAVES run, he says that immediately after the takeover of FIORDLAND TRAVEL, the JAMES MCKERROW and FIORDLANDER I were used until another vessel (the EXPLORER) was built to replace the older boat.

304: As far as the COACH services to TE ANAU, he says that at that time they were strictly regulated under the government’s NZ ROAD SERVICES so it was responsible for transporting the passengers the 30kms further to the WHARF at TE ANAU DOWNS.

324: While FTL did not make any major changes to the SS TAWERA, he says he was involved in developing the SLIPWAY for it (on the beach near the yacht club).

345: Referring again to the WHARF at TE ANAU DOWNS, he says ARTHUR PARKER, who at that stage owned and operated the HOTEL/MOTEL near the WHARF, was keen to start trips from there to the CAVES. “But I don’t think we ever did run commercial trips from there.”

369: Explains that TRANS TOURS were coach and hotel operators (they built the LUXMORE HOTEL complex at TE ANAU). Says they were disgruntled about their customers at MILFORD SOUND having to queue up for a meal at the THC-run MILFORD HOTEL. So when there was the chance to provide a launch with a meal on board, it supported FTL’s move.

380: Says TRANS TOURS were running about 27,000 passengers into MILFORD SOUND each year.

384: The FRIENDSHIP, he says, was built for use by the company KENNY’S in the MARLBOROUGH SOUNDS. Adds that before it slipped into MILFORD SOUND, the boat was re-fitted at PORT CHALMERS with customized passenger tables which had removable stainless steel plates.

397: Recalls LES HUTCHINS did a deal with local fisherman, JACK CANTRICK, to use his WHARF (situated at the end of the public road) for the FRIENDSHIP. Says they also brought in a caravan as accommodation at MILFORD and the HUTCHINS operated the launch service themselves for the first few months until the controversy with the THC was resolved.

405: As a result of this new meals service that FTL launched, the tour companies were clamouring to get on board. He says it changed the way the THC operated its services because it soon introduced similar on-board refreshments.

416: Mentions that it was at about the same period that FTL moved into the QUEENSTOWN area (with the takeover in 1969 of the TSS EARNSLAW steamer on LAKE WAKATIPU).

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010: Referring to the acquisition of the TSS EARNSLAW, he says the background to it was that in order for FTL to get a “toe-hold” in QUEENSTOWN, LES HUTCHINS bought QUEENSTOWN ENTERPRISES LTD which operated the launch, QUEENSTOWNER, on LAKE WAKATIPU.

034: Shortly afterwards, he says, NZ RAILWAYS was seeking a buyer for the TSS EARNSLAW and although HUTCHINS was one of the bidders, the government opted to sell it to four young men from AUCKLAND.

060: Focusing again on his career, he affirms he was employed by FTL for eleven years, the latter five as GENERAL MANAGER. Replies that there was no specific reason for leaving the company in 1974: “I really just got sick of the collar and tie.”

079: His next job, he says, was returning to his trade as a FITTER/TURNER at the HYDRO POWER STATION at WEST ARM where he was employed for more than twelve months.

093: At the same time, he says, he was drawing up plans to establish a CHARTER BOAT business on DOUBTFUL SOUND. Says he was encouraged in this by the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK BOARD which was concerned about a couple of operators already working in the area.

108: Says he bought a suitable vessel, WAVERLEY, in PICTON, successfully applied for a concession and his business (FIORDLAND CRUISES LTD) was underway in 1975.

112: States that the WAVERLEY had been built for commercial CHARTER work in the MARLBOROUGH SOUNDS, adding that it had been launched in 1973 so was virtually brand new when he bought it.

121: Replies that it was a conventional motorboat with good accommodation for up to twelve passengers. It cost him about $30,000 – “a real snip at the time”.

156: Mentions that the FNP CHIEF RANGER was HAROLD JACOBS who was a carpenter by trade and in the 1960s had built the FNP hut at HOPE ARM. Recalls BARGING the timber for the building across LAKE MANAPOURI.

174: JACOBS, he continues, was liked and respected in the community, adding that the CHIEF RANGER later went to SOUTH AMERICA to help set up a NATIONAL PARK there.

179: The biggest headache in setting up his new business, he says, was caused by the MARINE DEPARTMENT which had strict rules and regulations about the vessel even though it had been built to its specifications.

184: Originally his plan was to operate the vessel mainly in DOUBTFUL SOUND and as the business grew, it would branch out along the FIORDLAND coastline. Says the vessel was ideal for the SOUND and as they subsequently discovered “she was ideal to go anywhere”.

196: With the PARK BOARD concession application for his new business, he says FTL opposed it, adding that “it was always an ongoing battle between us and FIORDLAND TRAVEL” which did strain relations between the BARNES and the HUTCHINS. Discusses this further.

222: Recalls FIORDLAND CRUISES LTD’S first commercial trip was in OCTOBER 1975 and admits that after the initial euphoria, they were a little disappointed that people were not flocking to their door.

242: Explains that the three-day CRUISE involved two nights on the boat and three days in the SOUND during which they boated around the SOUND, did a bit of FISHING and also some BUSH WALKS.

251: Affirms that theirs was the first company to be granted a concession to operate out of DOUBTFUL SOUND on overnight cruises (a multi-day concession). Explains this further saying theirs was the first dedicated CHARTER BOAT operating in DOUBTFUL SOUND.

260: While FISHING was the main activity offered, he says he had been hopeful that interest would also have emerged among the DEER HUNTING fraternity because of the access to HUNTING grounds around the DOUBTFUL SOUND area. But that did not happen.

277: Replies that when the business began, the customer fare was about $50/day, a figure that rose to about $150/day by the time it was sold in 2002.

280: “It was very much a husband and wife team…IRENE played a big part in it (the business).” Besides the actual CRUISES, he says, there was the preparation required such as arranging their supplies on board, taking bookings and organising the transportation to DOUBTFUL SOUND where the vessel was permanently moored.

289: Explains that IRENE also had to operate the ship-to-shore radio equipment from their house in MANAPOURI. He adds that IRENE only occasionally crewed “’cause she was always a poor sailor”.

300: Says he always had a CREW on board (after quickly giving up on offering self-service CHARTERS because of the mess left behind in the galley) while maintenance and repair work was done locally.

307: The YOUTH HOSTEL in TE ANAU, he says, was a useful recruiting ground for CREW because there were not many people locally who were available to do the work, apart from RODDY MCRAE (owner of the SERVICE STATION in MANAPOURI).

321: Of their CHILDREN, he says, ROSSLYN occasionally CREWED but it was the youngest, LEITH, who did most CREWING. The BOYS were not interested in BOATING, but he adds, they all helped out in one way or another.

340: Affirms that in 1979, the company launched its CAPTAIN COOK CRUISES which involved taking passengers on a longer trip around the SOUTH COAST as well as the SOUND.

350: Says that initially, the MARINE DEPARTMENT allowed them to take the WAVERLEY to DUSKY SOUND but not with the passengers on board. So, he says, that meant taking the boat to BREAKSEA SOUND and flying passengers in by CESSNA FLOATPLANE from which they transferred onto the vessel.

357: MT COOK AIRLINES, he says, was the CHARTER AIRLINE they used and mentions CHRIS WILLETT was one of the pilots.

361: Says they never had a mishap during the transfer, explaining that the plane would fly in and taxi alongside to allow the passengers to hop off along the float of the FLOATPLANE and onto the BOAT.

366: Replies that the CRUISE was twelve days in total (six days x two) which meant he was away from home for that length of time each month throughout the season (OCTOBER to APRIL).

377: He says, they split the CRUISE so that passengers travelled from DOUBTFUL SOUND into DUSKY SOUND for the first six days and then flew back to MANAPOURI while they were replaced by passengers who were flown in from MANAPOURI to take the CRUISE on the return journey.

382: By the late 1980s, he says, they started using HELICOPTERS instead of fixed-wing aircraft mainly because the former were able to operate better with FIORDLAND’S changeable weather conditions.

398: Explains they called it CAPTAIN COOK CRUISES because it was at DUSKY SOUND that CAPTAIN COOK spent about six weeks in 1773. Says the passengers were also able to see PIGEON ISLAND, the home of 19th century CONSERVATIONIST, RICHARD HENRY.

406: Affirms that after its slow start, the business was doing very well towards the end of their tenure in 2002, helped by the fact that their costs were kept low because he was able to be SKIPPER, ENGINEER, and CREW. “The biggest disappointment would be that it took so long to come right.”

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004: Continuing the discussion about the slow start-up to the CHARTER business, he replies that at no point did they consider packing it in. “They were pretty frugal years…but no, never considered giving it up at any stage.”

059: Referring to the introduction of HELICOPTERS for the passenger transfer onto the WAVERLEY, he says they were dropped off at a beach in the SOUND, usually SUPPER COVE.

065: During the FIORDLAND VENISON HUNTING heydays, he says, they used the RANGINUI which had HELIPADS on its deck. ALPINE HELICOPTER owner/operator, TIM WALLIS, had been granted exclusive rights by the FNP BOARD to use his machines for DEER CULLING in the PARK. In 1973, he bought and anchored two vessels in the FIORDS – the RANGANUI and the HOTONUI – as processing and repository units for the large amount of VENISON brought out of the PARK by his shooters and pilots.

079: Latterly, he adds, the DEPARTMENT of CONSERVATION (DOC) built a HELIPAD at SUPPER COVE which was the furthest point of the CAPTAIN COOK CRUISE before the WAVERLEY turned back into DOUBTFUL SOUND.

094: Mentions his own involvement in the DEER RECOVERY INDUSTRY in 1982 when he was granted a concession to set up DEER PENS in the bush at DUSKY SOUND.

104: “My younger brother and I decided we were going to make our fortune out of LIVE DEER CAPTURE.” To set up the PENS, he says, they brought in rolls of NETTING and other materials.

108: Part of the plan, he says, was to offer LIVE DEER CAPTURE holidays at DUSKY SOUND using the accommodation on the WAVERLEY. Included in the holiday package, he says, the customers were able to help build the PENS and then round up the DEER before the animals were airlifted out by FLOATPLANE.

123: However, shortly after they set it all up, he says, the price of DEER plummeted so it wasn’t economically viable to round them up for eventual sale. That besides, he recalls it as a popular, if short-lived, venture. “We used to get all sorts of lads down there…thoroughly enjoyed themselves.”

136: Explains the process of making the PENS by saying that they would first select an appropriate site – one in which there was obvious evidence of DEER browsing – and put up a fence consisting of about half a roll of NETTING (50 metres).

146: Continues that the fence had to be staked in the BUSH without chopping down any trees. “So it was no mean feat to thread two-metre high NETTING through the BUSH and stay it all back without damaging the BUSH.”

150: Once the NETTING was in place, he says, GATES were positioned at strategic points. The GATES had a “trip system” where they either swung or dropped shut.

158: The idea was that the DEER, following their browsing route, would walk along and, unawares, would trip the wire which activated the GATES to close at either end of the PENNED area.

162: Replies that three was the most they ever caught in one go, it being more common to catch two or just one at a time.

172: Once inside the PEN, he says, the next stage was to catch the DEER or “BULLDOG them” (grab and drag down). This, he says, was hazardous so they developed a system whereby two people would go into the PEN, one with a MESH NET in a sack which was clipped onto the fence while the other would drive the animal into the NET until it got tangled up.

189: The young STAGS, he recalls, were the most dangerous to work with because they became quite aggressive and lashed out with their spiked antlers.

194: Says they set up a “dark room” a transported timber shed which at one side opened onto a PEN. When the FLOATPLANE was due, he says, they would run the DEER into a “race”, pin them down, strap their legs, put a blindfold on them and tranquillise them.

219: When the aircraft arrived, he says, they put the animals into WOOLSACKS which were tied round their necks so that the heads would stick out (blindfolded), and load them on to the plane.

224: The pilot, he adds, would remove the seats in the back of the (CESSNA) FLOATPLANE to make room for the DEER. The animals were then flown out to farms in the TE ANAU BASIN where they were released as soon as possible.

231: Another method, he says, was to put the animals into CRATES that he built and shipped onto the WAVERLEY. These CRATES, he says, were quite narrow but gave enough room for the DEER to tuck their feet under and lie down.

235: The CRATES were collapsible, he adds, so that they could be easily dismantled and reassembled for shipping onto the BOAT. The most number of DEER he could take out on the WAVERLEY by CRATE was four at a time.

247: “They (the DEER) used to get quite friendly, some of them, when you’d slide the lid back to give ’em a feed, scratch their ear and talk to them, they’re quite happy. Funnily enough, the noise of the motors drumming away used to make them quite docile.”

253: He says he also discovered that each animal displayed a different personality: some were quite happy while others were grumpy and hard to handle.

257: Replies that the best price he ever got was about $700 for a mature HIND, a sum that later dwindled to about $400. He also says that none was lost while being airlifted from the PEN to the farm although he remembers two animals died as a result of stress.

300: Says that while he dismantled all his PENS when he gave up on the venture, there are still some visible in the area today (2006).

308: Referring again to his FIORDLAND CRUISES LTD. CHARTER business, he says he sold it in 2002 to a partnership of CLINT TAURI (owner of the TE ANAU LAKEVIEW MOTOCAMP) and JOHN HARRIS from INVERCARGILL.

319: When he first started in 1975, he says, there were no other operators in DOUBTFUL SOUND apart from FIORDLAND TRAVEL (REAL JOURNEYS) and the odd FISHING BOAT such as the MISS AKAROA which had been CRAYFISHING since 1963.

329: Says the MISS AKAROA, owned by GEORGE BASSELL, was contracted to do some supply work and act as a pilot vessel during the HYDRO POWER PROJECT construction days.

335: In the late 1960s, he says, BASSELL sold the MISS AKAROA to a FISHERMAN, GEORGE BURNBY, who was running a CHARTER FISHING service at MILFORD SOUND.

341: Mentions the ACHERON (a motor launch) owned by ALEC BLACK of DUNEDIN which also provided a passenger service into DOUBTFUL SOUND in the early days.

Interview interrupted by telephone.

350: Also refers to a couple of CHARTER BOATS that travelled down the WEST COAST into the SOUND on a regular basis, and were eventually granted concessions to operate on the COAST.

354: By the time he retired, he calculates, there were four other CHARTER operators in DOUBTFUL SOUND, including REAL JOURNEYS.

359: Adds to this list another operator, LANCE SHAW (owner of BREAKSEA GIRL which offers TOURS of the SOUND), who was granted a concession some years after FIORDLAND CRUISES LTD.

367: Considers that DOUBTFUL SOUND could probably not withstand many more CHARTER BOATS on top of the number already moored there.

385: Commenting on having lived in MANAPOURI for more than forty years, he says the advantages are the lack of permanent residents in the township and having immediate access to the FNP. “It’s just a laid back area and a nice place to live.”

Interview closes

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Appendix:

A third recording was conducted at the participant’s home on 3 November 2006. The subject under discussion was oyster fishing in the waters off southern New Zealand during the 1940s and 1950s. It is an industry which is under threat because of the dramatic reduction of oysters that exist in those waters. Several causes are being researched, from infestation, invasion and over-fishing.

Tape 4 Side B starts

016: States that his FATHER, ALFRED HENRY BARNES, started in the industry as an OYSTER OPENER at the OZONE OYSTER FACTORY in BLUFF where the produce was processed and canned.

026: Shortly afterwards in 1943, he says, ALFRED went OYSTER FISHING through FOVEAUX STRAIT. The best (OYSTER) BEDS, he adds, were to the east at RUAPUKE ISLAND but the OYSTERMEN were DREDGING as far as THE SADDLE at the north-western corner of STEWART ISLAND.

057: Explains further that they were DREDGING OYSTERS from within half an hour’s distance by BOAT from the BLUFF HARBOUR entrance.

060: Replies that the INDUSTRY had been operating since the turn of the century (late 1800s-early 1900s). Says they “TOW-DREDGED” the OYSTERS by sail at first then later used steam-powered TRAWLERS. Diesel-driven DREDGERS weren’t introduced until 1945/46.

074: The latter, he adds, revolutionised OYSTERING by speeding up the process.

078: Affirms that when his FATHER began OYSTERING it was by steam-driven TRAWLER. Coal, he says, was shovelled from rail wagons on the WHARF by chute into bunkers on the OYSER BOATS every day.

089: OYSTERING, he points out, has only ever been a daily activity – it does not require vessels having to spend several nights at sea.

096: The OYSTER DREDGES were designed to have a chain mesh at the bottom with a bit and a cloth mesh over the top which expanded as the OYSTERS went into the DREDGE. Each one measured about three metres wide.

108: Continues that the DREDGES were carried on one side parallel with the BOAT and dropped onto the OYSTER BEDS. These are not spread out across the STRAIT, but instead are in strips so, he adds, it pays to know where they are before DREDGING begins. Person recorded: Cliff Barnes

116: In the 1940s, he says, the BOAT steamed up into the tide, the crew tossed the DREDGES over the side while the SKIPPER reduced the power allowing the vessel to follow the tide – what he terms “tow the DREDGES”.

122: In order to know where the OYSTER BEDS were, he says, in the early days the OYSTERMEN used landmarks to find them. Nowadays there are electronic signals on board to guide them.

128: A disadvantage of the early system was that in poor weather conditions, if they were unable to see the landmarks, the OYSTERMEN would have to return home empty handed.

132: Replies that the BEDS could be up to 3miles long and 100yards wide with the OYSTERS heaped in MOUNDS, not lying flat on the bottom of the SEABED. These MOUNDS, he says, are naturally formed as the OYSTERS run with the tide.

146: OYSTER SEASON traditionally lasts from mid-FEBRUARY to SEPTEMBER.

150: Through the war years, he says, the OYSTER BOATS went out seven-days-a-week but by the post-war era they had SATURDAYS off and went out on SUNDAYS to supply the markets with fresh produce on MONDAYS.

157: Those were the working hours, he says, when he went OYSTERING in the 1950s. “Of course being BLUFF there was a lot of rough weather and you didn’t SAIL at all.”

160: During the war years, he says, the OYSTERS were canned and many of them were exported to AUSTRALIA as well as domestic markets further north.

168: The OYSTER BOATS, he says, were allocated individual OYSTER BEDS and these were below the high water mark at the top of the HARBOUR. In the late 1950s, the day’s catch was shovelled into the OYSTER PENS (in the HARBOUR) to keep them fresh and at the next low tide the BEDHANDS bagged the OYSTERS for shipment.

177: The “magic size” of OYSTERS for shipment was two and a quarter inches. He later corrected this to two and one eighth inches. Off-tape he said that in the 1950s the quality and size of the OYSTERS was far superior to that of 2006 with many of them being “big, fat and juicy”.

180: Anything under the regulation size for opening, he says, was returned to the sea. Any “wings” from the correctly sized OYSTERS were removed. These he explains are small OYSTERS that become attached to the bigger ones.

191: Between the mid-1940s and the late 1950s, he says that apart from the upgrade to diesel power for the vessels, the actual OYSTER FISHING was little changed. There was still a crew of five needed on each BOAT; three DECKHANDS, an ENGINEER and a SKIPPER.

203: They went up on the tide, he says, threw the DREDGES and power-drifted down over the BEDS. These, he says, were all over the STRAIT although by the 1960s, the authorities had divided them up into four areas.

229: By the late 1950s, he adds, the authorities had also scrapped the HARBOUR PENS because of the risk of pollution in the area and the OYSTERS were bagged on DECK then lifted off the BOATS onto trucks which took them straight to factories in BLUFF, INVERCARGILL and CHRISTCHURCH where they were opened and processed. He later said the factories included JOHNSTONS OYSTERS and FOWLER & RODERIQUE, both at BLUFF, BARNES OYSTERS, INVERCARGILL and FAIRWEATHER in CHRISTCHURCH.

249: Although he can’t remember what he was earning as an OYSTERMAN in the early 1960s, he does recall that the SKIPPER got 6d/sack extra and the ENGINEER got 3d/sack extra compared with the wages paid to the DECKHANDS.

252: “We were paid by the sack and the sacks averaged 60 dozen OYSTERS, sometimes there’d be more depending on the size of the OYSTERS.”

264: While there were no restrictions or limits placed on the amount of OYSTERS they could take from the seabed, he says that as the season developed the merchants who owned the BOATS sometimes imposed limits if the market became oversupplied and they were unable to sell them.

269: In the 1940s, he replies, there were NINE BOATS working out of BLUFF during the OYSTER season. This number remained static until the early 1950s when a further two licences were issued for returned servicemen.

274: Around the time he gave up OYSTERING (1962/63), he says, the authorities had opened up the INDUSTRY and within the year the number of licences had risen to twenty-three before it was again closed off.

280: Considers that one reason the MARINE DEPARTMENT deregulated the INDUSTRY was because there was a perception that the merchants had too much control and were only catching enough OYSTERS to line their own pockets.

290: However, most of the OYSTERMEN, he says, were apprehensive about the decision because apart from being seasonal, the INDUSTRY was also naturally cyclical from abundant to skimpy (in quality and quantity) over a seven year period.

295: The OYSTERMEN also realised, he says, that the OYSTER BEDS were not as extensive as the MARINE DEPARTMENT seemed to suggest. The DEPARTMENT later imposed some restrictions and cut back the number of licences it issued.

308: Takes the view that the FISHERY went into decline because there were too many BOATS DREDGING the area and they just tore the BEDS about and cleared a way in for the parasite that is now being blamed for the BEDS demise.

312: In addition, he says, the BOATS adopted much heavier DREDGES that are double-sided and “it’s anybody’s guess how deep they DREDGED and how they tore the BEDS around”.

329: Explains that the type of DREDGE he used was the same as that used by his FATHER. The process involved jumping up onto a SORTING BENCH running along 5ft 10inches high along the PORT side of the BOAT after the SKIPPER had winched the filled DREDGE to pour its contents onto the DECK.

336: The later DOUBLE-SIDED DREDGE he describes as having chain mesh tied together with a couple of poles through the bottom so that when it is lifted back up from the OYSTER BED the DECKHANDS only need to pull the poles apart and the lot pours onto the sorting BENCHES..

344: In the early 1960s, he says, an average day’s catch was 60 SACKS a day, each containing 60 DOZEN OYSTERS. Adds that they often exceeded 100 SACKS a day. “The best day ever that I recall, eh, was 212 SACKS BAGGED on DECK.”

349: Not every BOAT was bringing in the same amount, he says, adding that it was the SKIPPER that made the difference.

354: Conserving the OYSTER BEDS, he replies, was never a consideration. At the end of each day’s FISHING, they would take home “untold” amounts of OYSTERS that were unaccounted for. “Now they’re limited to about 9 dozen a week.”

359: Considers the INDUSTRY’S future “looks pretty bleak” and that it needs to be shutdown completely then closely monitored by marine scientists to assess whether it can recover in both the short and long-term.

366: After perhaps twenty-five years, he says, if the BEDS have recovered then a limit should be imposed on the number of OYSTERS taken.

370: A few FISHERMEN, he says, made some unsuccessful attempts at replicating the OYSTER BEDS further west around the southern fiords and up the coast. Explains that the OYSTERS require a flat stretch of seafloor and good tides to feed off.

376: Mentions that at one stage it was suggested the WAIAU RIVER was one of the main contributing factors in forming the OYSTER BEDS because of the amount of lime it poured out into TE WAE WAE BAY from the land around the CLIFDEN area further up.

Interview ends

Tape 4 Side B stops