Interviewee: Hunter Shaw

Date: 15 August 2005

Interviewer and Abstracter: Morag Forrester

Tape counter: Sony TCM 939

Tape 1 Side A

007: Opens discussion saying his full name is HUNTER JOHN DOUGLAS SHAW and that he was born in 1942 in AUCKLAND.

012: Replies that both his PARENTS came from ENGLAND and that his FATHER was JOHN HENRY (SHAW) although he was better known as LUCKY.

035: States his FATHER was born in 1918 (in WALSALL) and recalls his paternal GRANDPARENTS lived at MOKOIA ROAD in BIRKENHEAD, AUCKLAND.

084: Remembers visiting his GRANDPARENTS when he and his PARENTS lived in the BAY OF PLENTY. Adds that they travelled by steam train on a journey that took all day.

108: Of his maternal GRANDPARENTS, says he only met his GRANDMOTHER (NANA). Adds that his MOTHER was (KATH) HOLLINGTON.

121: Replies that his FATHER ran a TAXI service when they lived in AUCKLAND.

126: Says he has one BROTHER (LANCE) who is fourteen months his junior. Adds that his PARENTS separated when he was about fifteen years old and that his FATHER remarried. His STEP-MOTHER (MARGO), he continues, lives in TE ANAU.

136: As a result of that second marriage, he says, he has one HALF-SISTER, ELIZABETH, who also lives in TE ANAU.

141: States that his PARENTS first visited MANAPOURI while on holiday from AUCKLAND in 1949/50. At that time, he says, they met some of the MURRELL family, owners/operators of the GRANDVIEW GUESTHOUSE (currently run by JACK and KLASKE MURRELL).

154: Specific members of the MURRELL family that his PARENTS became friendly with, he says, were JACK’S parents, BURTON and ALICE MURRELL and BURTON’S SISTER, EVA.

160: Immediately after that holiday, he continues, his PARENTS sold their house in AUCKLAND, bought an old truck, threw some gear in the back along with the two boys and “trundled off back down south”.

174: Remembers being excited about the move and being seasick on a (COOK STRAIT) ferry which he adds was not a “roll on, roll off” vessel. The truck, he says had to be driven onto a platform from which it was winched up onto the ferry.

193: Among his first impressions of MANAPOURI he recalls thinking it was “like a great big fantasy playground…all the BUSH, the FOREST…and the thought of (wild) PIGS and DEER just on your back doorstep was like a little boy’s heaven”.

201: On arrival, he says, they first rented a little cottage owned by LESLIE MURRELL which is now part of the GLADE CAMPING GROUND.

212: Describes LES MURRELL as having a paradoxically gruff but friendly manner. Explains that MURRELL owned a launch called the PILGRIM with which he ran excursions on LAKE MANAPOURI.

218: Goes on to say that on one such trip, MURRELL offered him a chance to steer the vessel, despite his being just a young lad and remembers “feeling proud SKIPPERING the PILGRIM along”.

228: Replies that in the early 1950s, GRANDVIEW GUESTHOUSE was the centre of MANAPOURI. Says the NZR (NEW ZEALAND RAILWAYS) bus ran three times a week from LUMSDEN (to the GUESTHOUSE) bringing with it supplies of basic foodstuffs.

234: Recalls the GUESTHOUSE also ran a POST OFFICE and remembers ‘AUNTIE’ EVA (MURRELL) sorting mail there.

241: Apart from that, he says, there was a handful of small baches or cribs. Lists some of the other people living in the settlement then as JIM MCGHIE, BILL BELL, DES ARTHUR and one or two holidaymakers.

251: In those first years, he replies, his FATHER was a DEER HUNTER – for SKINS. “I don’t think it (the job) would have been hugely financially successful.”

265: Replies that his FATHER’S main HUNTING ground was in the BACK VALLEY, at the UPPER GARNOCK BURN. Adds that LUCKY was often accompanied by BURTON MURRELL.

275: Describes the rented house as a cottage surrounded by FOREST. Adds there was no POWER then and cooking/heating was on a COAL RANGE. TILLEY lamps, he adds, provided lighting.

286: Remembers that at the GRANDVIEW GUESTHOUSE the lamp was quite ornate, but still fuelled by kerosene.

290: Adds that the toilet they used at the cottage was a “long drop” (an outdoor cubicle with a deep hole dug into the ground).

301: Schooling, he replies, was with the NZ CORRESPONDENCE SCHOOL, taught by his MOTHER. Recalls it was quite structured with mornings set aside for study while afternoons were mainly free.

310: Says his MOTHER did not work (out of the home) when he and his BROTHER were growing up.

324: Replies that there were other children in the settlement – mainly BINA MURRELL who was the youngest of that family and was therefore still at home (rather than at boarding school as was the norm due to there being no secondary schools in the district).

340: Comments that he did not suffer any transitional phase from moving out of a city environment to a remote rural community.

342: Play, he says, included fishing for eels at the wharf at the edge of the GLADE CAMPGROUND. Says he also walked in the BUSH and recalls puttering around in boats.

360: Talking about incidents involving wild animals, he relates an event some years later when he and his PARENTS came across a WILD SOW and her PIGLETS with LUCKY trying to shoo the SOW away while KATH and the boys made their way across HOME CREEK.

375: States that the family was in MANAPOURI for about a year before returning to the NORTH ISLAND.

382: Explains that his PARENTS had intended to buy an area of land on the edge of MANAPOURI but that problems arose. Gives a brief account of the matter, but adds that because the details were hazy at the time, he is unsure of their validity.

385: Says the area of land (470 acres) had been part of leasehold land under tenure by LES MURRELL. Explains that it lies to the east of HOME CREEK on the HILLSIDE ROAD.

403: Recalls his PARENTS bought a RESTAURANT instead – the REGENT CAFÉ in WHAKATANE, BAY OF PLENTY. Says they lived in OHOPE and recalls riding to school on HORSEBACK.

413: Comments that it was a very different environment from the BUSH country they had just left as it was on the beach with miles of sand and sea but “it was still pretty rural for us”.

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010: Replies that they were in WHAKATANE for about three years before returning to MANAPOURI in 1955.

042: Affirms that his PARENTS had by then secured the aforementioned piece of land on the edge of the settlement.

062: States he had been attending intermediate school, WHAKATANE HIGH, and when they returned south, he continued his education at SOUTHLAND BOYS HIGH SCHOOL in INVERCARGILL.

070: Says he and his brother were boarders at the school hostel, named COLDSTREAM HOSTEL. “We were there the first year it opened.”

079: Describes the facilities as dormitory rooms with several beds each and communal shower and toilet blocks as well as a large dining room and a separate prep room where they did homework every night.

089: In recalling that period of his life, he remembers SOUTHLAND BOYS HIGH as being a “very foreboding, authoritarian-looking SCHOOL”. Having been inside the premises since then, he says, it now appears to be more student friendly.

105: Replies there was a strong academic focus although SPORTS were also considered important.

115: Describes in detail an example of the type of punishment meted out to boys who disobeyed the rules during evening prep time.

141: States that sometimes blood was drawn as a result of the canings administered to disobedient pupils.

149: Considers he was reasonably good at most academic subjects except MATHEMATICS. Recalls that at both SCHOOLS he was top of his class in ENGLISH and in the upper stream for many other subjects.

165: As for SPORT, he says he was reasonably good at middle-distance running and average at RUGBY so that he was in the 2nd/IV.

179: In commenting about the teaching at SOUTHLAND BOYS HIGH, he recalls SID HUNTER who, despite his use of the cane, was still a likeable teacher. Others, he says, were not too encouraging.

220: Is most definite about how much he looked forward to vacations when he was able to return home to MANAPOURI.

238: For that second move the family made to MANAPOURI, he says, his PARENTS bought a LANDROVER and a CARAVAN in which they all lived while a house was being built on the 470-acre piece of land they’d bought (as previously described).

260: Affirms that during the SCHOOL holidays he was expected to help out with the building work and developing the land.

266: At that time, he says, the area was covered in tall MANUKA trees which had to be cleared. Describes doing this with the LANDROVER.

274: However, he explains, the real clearing work was done by the MCIVOR BROTHERS (RUSSELL, ROY & ALAN) who worked as agricultural contractors at the start (about 1953/54) of the major LANDS & SURVEY DEPARTMENT’S FARM SETTLEMENT PROGRAMME in the TE ANAU BASIN.

282: Says they broke in about 100 acres on the road side of HOME CREEK which was then covered in grass seed.

288: It was about then, he adds, that the (TAKITIMU) RABBIT BOARD was set up as he recalls the way in which rabbits were “annihilating the grass”.

294: Remembers the RABBIT BOARD foreman was ANDY ANDERSON and that there were large aerial drops of poison as well as manual placements of poison-coated oats along furrows in the whole district.

301: Replies there were few other (developed) FARMS in the immediate vicinity – the triangle of land between MANAPOURI, TE ANAU and the HILLSIDE ROAD, he says, had no cultivated paddocks. “It was just MANUKA, swamps, fern.”

306: Larger flat areas of TUSSOCK, for example where the present MANAPOURI AIRFIELD lies, were “just swarming with RABBITS”.

313: Correcting an earlier comment, he says, there was cultivation going on at the nearby FREESTONE (STATION), part of which is now the HOME CREEK NURSERY.

317: Referring to his education the first time his family lived in MANAPOURI, he is reminded that he was a pupil at the one-room schoolhouse on the FREESTONE property along with his BROTHER, BINA MURRELL and the MILNE children (whose FATHER was the runholder prior to the lease being requisitioned by the government).

325: Recalls their teacher was a MISS FELTON from MOSSBURN.

342: Another snippet of recall is that during that first year in MANAPOURI in 1950, the family moved from LES MURRELL’S cottage to another cottage at DUNCREAGAN a few kilometres further south on the WAIAU RIVER.. It was part of a leasehold run held by GUY MURRELL and his wife, ELIZABETH.

345: Remembers the main homestead had a large hexagonal lounge lined with antique firearms.

355: Says their MOTHER would take him and his BROTHER to and from the little school at the FREESTONE. Remembers they had to row across the WAIAU RIVER (in a dinghy) and then walk about two miles through the MANUKA and TUSSOCK to the school.

370: Relates another tale in which the three of them would go downriver in the dinghy (in the pre-HYDRO SCHEME days when the WAIAU was a fast-flowing current) to SHOOT rabbits.

380: On his early HUNTING escapades, he says he can clearly remember the first time he SHOT a DEER. States he was fourteen years old and had gone across the river with BURTON MURRELL (JNR) to a set of clearings locally named the “butcher’s shop”.

392: Says they reached the top clearing and came across a HIND. Recalls his heart was pumping and his breathing fast as he pulled the trigger. “It must have been at a period when the barrel was on the DEER because it fell over (laughs) and it rolled.”

409: Adds that no meat was wasted…all of it was brought out with them. Comments that it was a lesson from BURTON MURRELL (SNR) that has stuck with him: “You don’t leave any meat lying around…all you’re left with is the skeleton and the head.”

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023: At the age of fifteen, he says, he left school despite his PARENTS’ misgivings. “I left as soon as I could.”

060: Considers that his PARENTS were different from those of other children in that they allowed him and his BROTHER greater freedom.

093: Upon leaving school, he says, he first worked at home on the FARM “just working my butt off (laughs)”. The work, he adds, was unpaid apart from food and board.

107: However, he says there was a brief spell when he worked for the MCIVOR BROTHERS in the TAKITIMU area on a LANDS & SURVEY job but he can’t recall how much he earned.

128: Mentions that when he was about sixteen years old his PARENTS separated and his MOTHER, BROTHER and he left MANAPOURI on the NZR bus.

139: Remembers they went to MOTUEKA where all three of them worked (as pickers) on a TOBACCO FARM. Says it was contract work and that their contractor was named HOLYOAKE, a BROTHER of the PRIME MINISTER of the day.

178: Says from MOTUEKA, they moved back to AUCKLAND where he worked as a builder’s labourer.

193: Recalls wanting to join the FOREST SERVICE to take up DEER CULLING but his MOTHER signed him up instead to a FORESTRY course at KAINGAROA where each student was paid 6 pounds and 15 shillings per week excluding board.

215: Six months into the course, he says, many of his fellow students had already left and he quickly followed suit. From there he got a job on a DAIRY FARM, at EDGECOMBE, BAY OF PLENTY, earning about 10 pounds a week.

250: Recalls celebrating his 17th birthday there but not long afterwards he was working as a GARDENER at the TE ANAU HOTEL when it was government-run under the TOURISM HOTEL CORPORATION (THC).

278: After a few months in AUSTRALIA, he was back again and this time DEERHUNTING in the MARAROA area. Says he was working with NEIL BARNES.

290: Explains they were refused permission to access the area through BURWOOD STATION, so came in from the VON RIVER region and a single track known as the BURMA ROAD.

294: Remembers they eventually got a tractor through and a trailer full of supplies down the other side into the valley where they set up base camp and built a SAFE for the carcasses. The plan was to build an airstrip.

300: Replies that they got access permission from BOB METHERILL at ELFIN BAY STATION (he says GREENSTONE but corrects this later on) to whom they paid a royalty fee of one penny per pound of DEER MEAT.

313: Of the number of DEER in the MARAROA at that time (1961) he says there were a lot of them around. “You could count a hundred DEER any time of the day…ten here, twenty there, thirty there.”

324: However, he says the condition of the animals was not good because they were not getting enough feed in the wild.

337: Comments that BARNES was set on being able to fly the carcasses out so they spent a lot of time building the airstrip. Adds that he ended up being the one to have to cover a lot of ground when things went wrong or they needed to go and get help.

350: Mentions that the airstrip was incomplete and therefore restricted the amount of weight carried in a plane. Also, because the aircraft was a topdressing plane, the carriage had to be lined with tarpaulin to keep the DEER meat clean.

355: Describes processing the MEAT on site, packing the cuts in MUSLIN and loading them into the plane after their own food supplies had been unloaded. The MEAT was sent to the VENISON processing plant at MOSSBURN operated then by PADDY KILGARRIFF and JOCK MURDOCH.

361: Replies that the PILOT was RUSSELL GUTSCHLAG who worked, at that stage, for HEWETT AVIATION at MOSSBURN.

381: Says frustration over BARNES’ way of working the partnership brought an end to it and as soon as they left the MARAROA area other DEER HUNTERS from TE ANAU moved in. Says they just cut the chain at the BURWOOD gate and, working at night, came away with heavily-laden trailers of DEER carcasses.

400: Says he returned to MANAPOURI and remembers consulting BURTON MURRELL (SNR) about using PACKHORSES in the BACK VALLEY for carrying DEERMEAT out. “He was absolutely anti.”

412: Says MURRELL told him that his plan would open up the area to “pigeon hunters” and argued that in any case the ground would be too wet for HORSES.

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002: Continuing the discussion at the end of previous tape, says he then discussed his BACK VALLEY plan with the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK BOARD’S CHIEF RANGER, MURRAY SCHOFIELD who gave his approval.

055: After gaining SHOFIELD’S support, he says BURTON MURRELL did an about turn and offered him as much assistance as he could to help get the plan started (in 1963).

080: The first thing to be done, he recalls, was to provide access for the HORSES so he re-established an old blaze trail formed by the MURRELLS and THOMPSONS and other HUNTERS. Adds that he had to widen the TRACK for use by laden PACKHORSES.

092: Mentions he was staying at GRANDVIEW at the time, in a CARAVAN at the back of the GUESTHOUSE

101: While he rowed across each day in a dinghy (owned by the MURRELLS) from MANAPOURI, the HORSES stayed in the BACK VALLEY after they were brought in, either by swimming across the river or through the BUSH country from DUNCREAGAN STATION.

145: Explains that he made a fenced paddock for the HORSES near the lakeside where he would transfer the DEER carcasses onto the dinghy and row back to MANAPOURI.

153: Recalls the price for DEER MEAT then was about ₤1/3s per lb for hind quarters and saddles and 1shilling per lb for lesser cuts.

159: After a few months, he says, he bought his own boat and extended his working area towards HOPE ARM. Adds that in cutting a TRACK through there he again was helped by BURTON MURRELL (SNR) and JOCK THOMPSON (an experienced DEER HUNTER).

170: Describes the country he encountered was much drier and flatter; better conditions for the HORSES. Adds that he could steer his boat into a small lagoon where he could safely leave it. Nearby, he built a MEAT SAFE in addition to the one he had installed at the HUT in the BACK VALLEY.

182: It meant, he says, that in less than two hours he could bring 1000lbs of MEAT (8-10 DEER) from the hut to the SAFE at the lagoon ready for transfer onto the boat. He could then take the boat across the lake and the HORSES would make their own way back to the clearings.

191: Interview session closes and tape stopped.

A second interview was held again at HUNTER SHAW’S home on the outskirts of MANAPOURI on 17 AUGUST 2005

208: Affirms that there was no risk in giving the HORSES such free rein.

233: Mostly, he says, he worked on his own so he dug a trenched pit into which he would stand the HORSES and he describes how he would load up the PACK SADDLES.

266: States that he was soon able to work out the roaming habits of the HORSES; for example, early mornings or late evenings they would assemble in the “MONKEY ISLAND” area which was a large open clearing.

271: Recalls that often there would be DEER among the HORSES as both species would feed on the same grass.

275: Replies that there was no risk of the HORSES turning wild, adding that he supplemented their diet with OATS and CHAFF.

284: Reiterates that he could always locate them mainly because they didn’t roam too far due to the plentiful supply of grass available to them in the area.

295: Other people were his biggest concern with regard to the HORSES safety, he says, especially as tourism increased.

300: Holidays and particularly the “ROAR” (the annual HUNTING period usually in APRIL at the height of the DEER mating season when the STAGS are heard to ‘roar’) were of particular concern with the potential risk of HUNTERS accidentally shooting at his HORSES.

307: Says he resorted to putting up a sign at the entrance to the TRACK for HUNTERS to be aware that HORSES were in the area. “And I never did lose a HORSE.”

329: Referring again to the HOPE ARM TRACK, he affirms he built it single-handedly using a chainsaw and axe after surveying its direction. From the hut, he says, it followed northwest towards HOPE ARM.

334: Considers it was a good, dry and flat TRACK, easy for the HORSES and that it took about one and a half hours for them to walk between the SAFE at one end and his boat at the lagoon.

347: Replies the TRACK took about a week to build.

354: Refers to BURTON MURRELL (SNR) telling him that at the GARNOCK BURN, where he forded the river to reach HOPE ARM, there had been a time when wild cattle roamed the clearings and bush, having come from as far as SUNNYSIDE (STATION) and MONOWAI.

358: Adds that MURRELL explained to him that the cattle had formed a well-beaten path from SUNNYSIDE, past LAKE RAKATU. And that from the GARNOCK BURN to HOPE ARM there was an old cattle TRACK that ran around the edge of the swamp which would still be there.

369: Says armed with this knowledge he looked out for the TRACK and found it exactly as MURRELL had told him. As a result, he says: “I had very little to do, just cut the odd tree and log…cut the fern back and it was a readymade TRACK.”

377: Expands on how JOCK THOMPSON helped him by telling him about the lagoon being a much better place for him to berth his boat and the small TRACK that was already formed there.

397: Of the two SAFES he brought in, he says the one next to the hut in the BACK VALLEY he’d made out of MANUKA poles with fly mesh for the sides and black polythene and (corrugated) iron on the roof. Says it also had a door: it was a “walk-in” SAFE, large enough to hang up to twenty DEER carcasses.

405: Explains that while HUNTING, if he had shot just one DEER he would carry it back tied onto his pack frame and hang it up in the SAFE.

408: Adds that the DEER were gutted (by him) with head and legs removed before being hung in the SAFE and that they could be safely stored (hygienically) for several days.

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003: Affirms that the price of DEER fluctuated over the years he was involved in the industry although overall, he considers, it moved upwards from the 1961 rate of ₤1/3s for the better cuts of MEAT.

018: After carrying the VENISON by dinghy to MANAPOURI, he says, at first he took it to TE ANAU.

026: Explains in greater detail his own 16ft-long boat which, he says, had no seats so that it could carry the maximum amount of DEER carcasses.

040: All up, he reflects, it cost him one thousand pounds including the outboard motor (in 1962). Mentions DOUG JONES, a MEAT PACKER from CROMWELL who helped finance the purchase of the boat on an interest-paid loan.

068: Says that at first he took the VENISON to TE ANAU and (export) agents who collected the MEAT from various points around the country. Adds that one of the TE ANAU-based agents was GARY HOLLOWS, a former HUNTING mate who, he says, died some years later in a HELICOPTER accident.

077: Recalls HOLLOWS drove a bright-yellow LANDROVER with which he would pick up and deliver the DEER.

088: In the earlier years, he says, the MEAT was transported to a processing factory in CROMWELL, but soon a small factory was set up in TE ANAU by LES LYONS.

094: Not long after that, he continues, a second, larger processing factory was operating in the town, run by EVAN MEREDITH. (It was originally built and operated by TED THOMAS in 1964.)

115: On the issue of safety while HUNTING, he says the growth in tourism especially into the 1970s and early 1980s not only caused concern for his HORSES but also the welfare of other people and himself.

127: Mentions situations when he and another HUNTER were obviously covering the same ground unbeknownst to each other “which is not a very comfortable feeling, y’know”.

133: Nowadays he says there are “lots of people around…I don’t really like being in there at the busy part of holiday times”.

138: A BLOCK system used to operate, he says, during the annual HUNTING season. In theory, he continues, it meant you were permitted to HUNT a particular area for a set amount of time with the knowledge that no-one else was HUNTING the same ground.

144: However, changes were implemented, partly because that system was subject to misuse by permit holders and expands on this with typical examples.

166: Considers that nowadays the restrictions on numbers of people being granted permits in, for example, the MANAPOURI area are very loose.

173: Comments that the same problem seems to occur with the use of HELICOPTERS in WESTERN FIORDLAND. Says a few years ago a HUNTER could be in the areas north or south of MILFORD SOUND confident in knowing he was the only person there.

177: “Not now….a CHOPPER will drop one party off here…or there’s another party later on…on the other side of the clearings, perhaps, from where you were dropped off. So, it is getting busier and busier…I suppose it won’t get any better.”

184: Tape stopped due to telephone interruption

188: Reiterates that he was granted an annual concession to operate in the BACK VALLEY from the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK BOARD, the predecessor to the DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION (DOC).

200: States he also lived in the BACK VALLEY HUT on weekdays for most of the twenty years he conducted his DEER RECOVERY business.

205: “It was like paradise, you might say, it had everything.” Describing the interior, he says it was a four-bunk hut with a fireplace at one end, a bench, a SAFE, a radio and a TILLEY lamp. Adds that his diet was much the same as at home (in MANAPOURI) because he would bring stores with him.

213: Considers the original hut was built by the MURRELLS and was replaced by recreational HUNTERS from TIMARU who used timber cut from the surrounding forest.

225: The chimney, he explains, was made of iron and the bunks were also timber with coconut-mat (HESSIAN-like) covers on the mattresses.

236: Remembers usually getting home (to the hut) late in the day, which often meant walking back in the dark.

246: Reflects, though, that for a long time after establishing his base camp, he did not need to walk too far to shoot a plentiful supply of DEER.

254: Says he eventually expanded his territory, exploring new country “so I got to know it very, very well and I still do”.

271: Even when it was too black to see his hand stretched in front of him, he says, he was still able to get back to the hut because he had virtually memorised the route.

280: Mentions he too became an agent later on which was the reason for having a two-way radio in the hut to keep in contact with suppliers (HUNTERS) from further afield.

294: Explains that when he was away from the hut, he didn’t worry about his goods going missing or being damaged. In fact, he says, it was traditional BACK COUNTRY manners for people using the huts to leave some tea, sugar and even rice.

298: However, in later years this thoughtfulness was subject to abuse by one or two spoilers so it no longer applies.

304: On the question of how his family was affected by his lifestyle, he replies that it was his HUNTING interests that introduced him to his first WIFE, LESLEY TINKER.

308: Goes on to say that she and a friend were AUSTRALIAN tourists who’d arrived in MANAPOURI and ended up working for a while at the GRANDVIEW, at the back of which was his CARAVAN.

317: Replies he and LESLEY were MARRIED for about fourteen years and had two CHILDREN – a SON (RICKY) and DAUGHTER (KERRYN).

328: Says he was always home in MANAPOURI at weekends and sometimes during the week, for example, if he was needed at a school sports event in which one of his CHILDREN was taking part.

335: “After all, I was only half an hour away from civilisation, if you like, once I was in my boat.”

344: Referring to the LAKE MANAPOURI HYDRO SCHEME and the HYDRO VILLAGE that existed in the 1960s and 1970s, he says they had little effect on his working life but did affect his social and family life.

348: For example, he says, the community hall in the HYDRO VILLAGE hosted several music bands, dances and other events so that social life was much livelier.

358: Recalls that at the time it was often assumed by other people that if you were living in MANAPOURI then you were working at DEEP COVE or WEST ARM (where the HYDRO SCHEME was built).

360: Mentions he worked a couple of “short stints” at WEST ARM to cover for someone on leave. Remembers working underground with a lot of water pouring into the immediate area – something he wasn’t comfortable with especially after working outdoors for years.

380: Likewise, he recalls one of the tunnel workers joining him for a few days HUNTING in the BACK VALLEY. “For a start he was having a lot of difficulty just carrying his body around…climbing hills and stuff like that…”

401: Affirms that it was the mid-1960s that saw the introduction of HELICOPTERS in DEER HUNTING and RECOVERY. Comments that in the first few years, it had little effect on his business because only one company (ALPINE HELICOPTERS) was granted a permit to work in the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK.

407: Explains this further by saying that ALPINE didn’t work over the top of ground SHOOTERS like himself.

409: But when the permit system was opened up and other HELICOPTER operators were allowed to shoot DEER in the PARK, “that was the beginning, you might say, of the end for people like myself because then there was no respect for people…working on the ground”.

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004: Mentions that when he first got involved in the HELICOPTER-operated DEER HUNTING, he was employed as a GUTTER – someone who cleaned the carcasses prior to their being sent for processing.

008: Explains the teamwork on CHOPPERS included a SHOOTER, who worked closely with the PILOT as they targeted areas and animals, and a GUTTER who mostly was left at the drop point where the carcasses were assembled.

038: Says he would prepare the DEER by taking the legs and head off and gather the carcasses into sling loads to be uplifted by the HELICOPTERS and carried out of the PARK.

044: Adds that he only did this work on standby, not regularly.

049: At one stage, he continues, he worked full-time as a SHOOTER with PILOT, SID DEAKER. Their patch was the WAPITI area of the PARK when it was opened up to CULLING.

060: Recalls they were paid the same rate as ground SHOOTERS – no animals, no pay – which was different from the norm at that stage for HELICOPTER-operated RECOVERY.

075: Says they were given the HELICOPTER to service their ground SHOOTING operation. So, he continues, they would fly from A to B, park the machine, and then go HUNTING on foot.

082: Goes on to say they then picked up the carcasses using the HELICOPTER. Explains that he would hook the DEER onto a long chain after shimmying out of the passenger side, manoeuvring underneath to hook the chain at one end, then sliding down it to tether the carcasses on to the other end.

096: Admits that working with the aircraft in thick bush country required the SHOOTER to be as alert as the PILOT in looking out for potential obstacles.

104: “It was a pretty dangerous occupation, I guess, yeah…as history has proved since, when there were a lot more HELICOPTERS operating later on and more pressure still.”

111: Mentions that SID DEAKER at that stage had just gained his licence to fly CHOPPERS and was therefore very careful and cautious, “which was great, I thought”.

113: Adds that the machine was a HILLER, which was not particularly fast. In having a good stable shooting platform, he says, it was heavier than the lighter HUGHES 300 models that became more popular in later years.

136: Concedes that this form of DEER RECOVERY over a relatively short time span (about 12 years) significantly reduced the number of DEER roaming the PARK but did not completely eradicate the animals.

163: On the issue of transgressions going on at the time between rival helicopter companies, such as reported incidents of sabotage to machines, he suggests that the matter was beefed up by the media.

173: Goes on to say that there were more incidents of illegal operators working in the PARK and also on a lot of private land, explaining that before there was money to be made from DEER, local farmers allowed HUNTERS on their properties. But as soon as it became more lucrative, he says, much of that country was closed to both ground SHOOTERS and HELICOPTER operators and, as a result, poaching did occur.

205: Mentions that the NZRAF, using IRIQUOIS HELICOPTERS, was called in at one stage (in the 1970s) to try to control the problem of poaching in the WAPITI area which had been designated off-limits to HUNTING operations.

217: Comments that a lot of the rules made then (by the PARK board) were not fair. Cites as an example that for years he sought permission to bring his POINTER dog into the PARK to help with DEER RECOVERY, but without success.

248: Having for years been granted concessions to have his HORSES in the PARK, in 1981 he was informed by the authorities that they were to be removed due to a change in policy.

267: Says that his HUNTING in the BACK VALLEY had already been affected by the HELICOPTER operations as the number of animals was drastically reduced. The PARK’S new ruling, he adds, was the nail in the coffin of his twenty year-old enterprise.

272: It also brought an end to his professional HUNTING career, he says, although he still did the odd DEER SHOOTING stint around the edges of the LAKE (MANAPOURI).

284: Talks about his decision then to work offshore. The work, he says, (for the DEPARTMENT of LANDS and SURVEY which evolved into DOC) was much the same because it involved animal control on some of FIORDLAND’S offshore islands.

290: Recalls there was “quite a rigmarole” joining the DEPARTMENT (in 1981) because of recent tangles with it over his operations in the BACK VALLEY.

297: Mentions being on good terms with some of the DEPARTMENT’S RANGERS, such as JOHN GARDNER and JOHN WARD.

306: However he refers to clashes, prior to working for the DEPARTMENT, with others such as the SENIOR RANGER, TED ATKINSON, who later became his supervisor.

322: Cites an occasion related to his concessionary payments for DEER PENS he used for LIVE CAPTURE of DEER.

350: Mentions that the PENS had been removed by the DEPARTMENT without informing him first of its intention to do so. He illustrates the row that erupted between them over the matter.

391: On joining ATKINSON’S team not long afterwards, he says, the two of them talked things through and thereafter managed to work amicably together. Adds that he was employed at the TE ANAU office for about seven years until 1987 when several government departments were restructured and the DEPARTMENT of CONSERVATION was formed.

399: Recalls he was one of nineteen staff to be made redundant as a result of the restructure.

411: By then, he replies, his first marriage had ended and he had moved from MANAPOURI to TE ANAU and had just got MARRIED again, this time to CLAIRE MALEY whose family came from GREENHILLS, near BLUFF.

Tape 3 Side B stops

Tape 4 Side A starts

008: Continues off-tape discussion about his second family which consists of two DAUGHTERS. PHOEBE and COURTNEY.

032: Says that not long after he and CLAIRE were MARRIED, they moved back to MANAPOURI and built their present home (on the outskirts of the settlement).

035: Replies that CLAIRE is the HEAD TEACHER at the FIORDLAND KINDERGARTEN, a job she has held for more than seventeen years.

Tape stopped and started due to participant’s persistent cough.

046: Referring back to his job on the offshore islands (in southwest FIORDLAND), he says, the base from which he and his colleagues worked was the RENOWN (a supply vessel owned by the FNP BOARD and its successor, DOC).

051: Explains they were clearing DEER from many of the smaller islands (ELIZABETH and DOUBTFUL) between DUSKY SOUND to PRESERVATION INLET, not the larger ones such as SECRETARY ISLAND.

066: Nor, he adds, the bigger islands such as ANCHOR, COOPER and RESOLUTION because they did not have sufficient resources to work them.

080: Explains that it was easy enough to establish whether an island had DEER on it because of the signs left behind, such as hoof prints.

104: Some of the tiny islands (measuring 300sqm), he says, may only have been inhabited by one or two animals, while other larger ones had a resident population.

131: With the RENOWN as base camp, he says, it meant they could have regular showers, good food, bunks and a warm living environment.

135: Recalls that for much of the time, the crew (person who cooks and cleans) was CHRIS HUGHES (of the TE ANAU-based tour company TRIPS n TRAMPS) while the participant’s BROTHER, LANCE SHAW, was the SKIPPER.

143: Explains the 50ft-long steel-hulled vessel could carry about 10 people and that it navigated well around the islands but was a “bit of a dog” on the open sea.

159: Replies that the shifts were generally ten days on, four days off.

164: Apart from animal control, his section of the DEPARTMENT was also involved in archaeological and historical site survey work, much of it again based from the RENOWN.

169: Continues that they found a lot of undiscovered sites, particularly in PRESERVATION INLET. Adds that he was also one of the team working on an archaeological dig on LEE ISLAND in the northern stretch of LAKE TE ANAU.

175: Describes it as one of the richest archaeological sites of its type in the country and that they found adzes and a varied collection of bird bones which identified the island as a seasonal HUNTING base for early MAORI people.

195: After about three years, he says, he was transferred to the DEPARTMENT’S northern division which involved working on the ROUTEBURN TRACK and therefore required much greater interaction with the public.

201: Says initially he was apprehensive about that latter aspect of the job but soon came to enjoy it and has been working in that type of role ever since.

218: On being made redundant in 1987, he says he completed the first part in gaining a SKIPPER’S licence which helped him get a job on a tourist vessel in MILFORD SOUND.

228: The first boat he worked on, he says, was the ANITA BAY, owned by RED BOATS LTD., which brought MILFORD TRACK walkers back from the completion area of SANDFLY POINT to the MILFORD settlement.

240: Mentions he also worked briefly for FIORDLAND TRAVEL LTD., and then became involved in HELLEWORK MASSAGE training (described as deep tissue bodywork – structural integration).

285: Referring back to his first year at MANAPOURI and why his PARENTS chose to live in an area with few amenities (in the 1950s), he says it was the isolation itself that attracted them: “It was just a beautiful environment to be in…that’s certainly what drew my PARENTS and, in turn, me and my BROTHER.”

294: Describes the neighbouring town of TE ANAU as also being much smaller then and recalls the FOUR SQUARE store (in the town centre) which was run by the SHELTONS and its rival, RADFORDS store, (on the corner of LAKEFRONT DRIVE and MOKOROA STREET).

309: Remembers his PARENTS did not have a telephone at home and that if they needed to use one, they went to the EXCHANGE situated at MURRELL’S GRANDVIEW GUESTHOUSE.

313: Even then, he says, the link was on a PARTY LINE (several people were connected through one communication line).

317: As to the first vehicle he bought, he says it was a 1934 “fire-engine red” AUSTIN SIX which he bought in AUCKLAND. Recalls it had “bucket seats” in the front.

332: Remembers seeing WILD DEER and PIGS at the edge of the road between TE ANAU and MANAPOURI even up to the immediate township boundary.

341: Mentions another family that lived in MANAPOURI in the 1950s was the HUTCHINS (LES and OLIVE) who had children slightly younger than him and his BROTHER. The HUTCHINS eventually became one of the leading tourism operators nationwide via their company, FIORDLAND TRAVEL LTD. now known as REAL JOURNEYS.

343: Relates a tale about the driver of the local school bus (in the 1950s, the nearest primary school was at TE ANAU) stopping on the way home to take a pot shot at a WILD PIG seen from the roadside.

359: Also mentions that at one time there was an end-of-year tradition when the iron lid of a large pot was slung from a beech tree at the GRANDVIEW and BURTON MURRELL (SNR) would gong the midnight hour to bring in the NEW YEAR.

370: Replies that it was just coincidence that the 60 acres of land he and CLAIRE bought in the 1980s neighboured the 470 acres that his parents bought thirty years before. But he admits it was “sort of like coming home, I guess”.

394: Interview ends

Tape 4 Side 1 stops