Interviewee: Jack De Wilton LUTTRELL

Date of Interview: 10 February 2005

Interviewer and Abstractor: Morag Forrester

Tape counter: Sony TCM 393

Side A starts

022: Says he hunted in his local district of the WAIRARAPA from about the age of 15 and it was only a few years later that BAS(IL) BLATCHFORD offered him a job SKIN-HUNTING in the HAAST.

035: “I was given the LANDSBOROUGH block to SKIN-HUNT”. Adds that it was his first time away from home and that he had to learn the ropes in becoming a bushman.

045: States he was in that block for about five months, the latter two on his own because his colleague was unable to cope with the solitude. Recalls he went HUNTING all the time, even when it rained. But admits that he had to perform more domestic tasks. “You had to make your own bread, things like that. That was a full time, full day’s job – making bread.”

068: Mentions that all his supplies were brought in by packhorse from MAKARORA over the HAAST PASS and packed up to the LANDSBOROUGH. From there on, he says, he had to carry it to base camp.

075: Recalls that he carried the (DEER) SKINS back out to the river where they were dried. This was what the government shooters had always done, he adds.

100: Replies that he shot about 800 DEER in the four months from end JANUARY to mid-MAY. “We were paid by the pound (weight) and when I started they were bringing 10 shillings/lb; when I knocked off they were talking about selling them for 2s6d/lb….I think I ended up getting about 4shillings/lb.”

115: At the end of the season, he remembers, his greatest wish was a “feed of fish and chips” because of the lack of fat in his diet. Any meat he ate was venison supplemented with camp bread and potatoes and onions.

129: Says it was shortly after that he persuaded his colleague, BLATCHFORD, to take a trip to FIORDLAND. “I was always just mad on TROPHY HUNTING (DEER heads)…So we came down here end of May/early June (1947) and hired LAWSON BURROWS to take us up to the mouth of the GLAISNOCK and we did a trip in there.”

146: Snow and cold weather are an abiding memory of that trip, he says, and that they didn’t see many DEER or WAPITI except in the valleys. “But anyhow, I saw enough of it to decide it was worthwhile coming back for.”

152: Mentions the HOWARD expedition and the preparatory work for it. Says the DEPARTMENT OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS saw the need to send someone into the WAPITI area to “take a look around”. Says BLATCHFORD was asked to form a small team but because FIORDLAND was known for being such rough country with bad weather conditions, “nobody wanted to do it so BAS and I and two other blokes took it on”.

170: Replies that BLATCHFORD was a SENIOR FIELD OFFICER for the WILDLIFE BRANCH of the DIA and MAX KERSHAW was in charge of the SOUTHERN LAKES area.

182: Recalls that first government-funded survey was between mid-JANUARY and mid-MAY of 1948 and that they tried to cover as much country as possible. “But even that was a disaster because that year they recorded 284, I think it was, inches at MILFORD SOUND, of rain (laughs). At one stage we recorded 33 consecutive days of rain on that trip. It just rained and rained and rained (laughs).”

192: Explains they were sent in to CULL RED DEER who were encroaching on the WAPITI country to try to keep the WAPITI HERD as pure a breed as possible (i.e. to prevent cross-breeding with the RED DEER).

206: The government instructions, he says, stated that it would be easy to differentiate the two species because RED DEER have a red coat (fur) and the WAPITI have cream-coloured coats; “this time of the year – shows you how little they knew about it – the WAPITI were in their summer pelage”.

213: As a result, he continues, they at first would shoot what they thought were RED DEER but on closer inspection would discover that underneath the red pelt was the white so that they had in fact shot WAPITI. “So, you know, it was just left to our own discretion as to what we shot then, you see. We never shot anything that looked like a WAPITI.”

230: Explains that the BASE CAMP was at the head of the GLAISNOCK and there was another CAMP by the HANKINSON HUT where some stores were kept. There was also a 12-foot boat with a “dodgy outboard motor” which they also used.

247: Says they saw quite a bit of country, travelling over the pass into GEORGE SOUND and that they also covered many of the side creeks such as the LUGAR BURN.

254: Replies that the WAPITI were feeding on FIVE FINGER, RIBBONWOOD and BROADLEAF at the lower BUSH-COVERED slopes but above the BUSH-LINE they would have eaten “pretty well everything”. Adds that the WAPITI they saw in 1948 were in good condition.

280: At the end of that assignment, he says, he went to INVERCARGILL to put his name forward for the HOWARD-EXPEDITION the following year. Mentions other participants HOWARD contracted included ALEX BLACK (SKIPPER) of the ALERT (a 70-foot vessel) and two “well-known WAPITI hunters” – KEN SUTHERLAND and E.J.HERRICK of HAWKES BAY. In addition, LES MURRELL from MANAPOURI was appointed SENIOR GUIDE because of his knowledge of the FIORDLAND coast.

290: Recalls that HOWARD was determined that they could use PACKHORSES and had some months earlier brought a CANADIAN GUIDE (RED CRICHTON) to assess FIORDLAND. Remembers accompanying CRICHTON to the head of the GLAISNOCK and down to LAKE HANKINSON and laughs that the response was that “no way in hell could any horse handle that sort of country”.

308: Mentions that it was SUTHERLAND and MURRELL who’d suggested to HOWARD that the expedition team should cover the STILLWATER area nearer the coast. Says he was taken on as a member of the HOWARD team and boarded the ALERT with the others to CASWELL SOUND from where he and MURRELL went up the STILLWATER RIVER and over a saddle into GEORGE SOUND.

332: Having been taken on as an assistant to HOWARD, he comments that his employer was “hopeless in the bush” but someone with quite a personality. Mentions that HOWARD was a lawyer in the US but also had a degree in BIOLOGY and was interested in researching DEER. Adds that DR OLAUS MURIE was the head of the scientific team involved in the expedition and that his wife, MARDIE MURIE (who later became a leading CONSERVATIONIST in the US) and their son accompanied them.

350: On the fact that the research extended to include BOTANISTS, ENTOMOLOGISTS and other related disciplines, he says such a large group required the NZ government to send in a set-up team. “All the supplies and stores, tentage and all the food and drink was taken from the BLUFF round up PUYSEGUR POINT and up CASWELL SOUND.” It was unloaded then carried by hired porters to LAKE MARCHANT where there were three dinghies to carry the load up the STILLWATER RIVER to the BASE CAMP at the head of the river.

365: Says he returned with HOWARD on the ALERT to BLUFF and suggested to the COLONEL that if he wanted a really good look over the country, then the best method would be to charter a flight. Continues that HOWARD hired a plane from QUEENSTOWN – a PROCTOR aircraft piloted by TREVOR CHEETHAM.

370: Remembers they took off from the airstrip at MANAPOURI, flew over and had a good look around. Affirms it was his first time in an aeroplane and describes it as “unbelievable” adding that CHEETHAM was a “helluva good pilot”.

376: Recalls that in order to get a good look, the pilot took the plane down to the valley floors and to lift up again he would turn it round. “When we come out of the pass out of the STILLWATER RIVER and this…the plane sort of shuddering like this and old HOWARD was pulling on the chair and his knuckles were white (laughs)…and when we landed back at MANAPOURI he got out and he was still sort of shaking…took his hat off..(and said) ‘My God, that guy can fly a plane’(laughs).”

387: Mentions there were about 30 scientific personnel involved in the expedition although they were not all in the area at the same time. Adds that there were four staff from the LANDS & SURVEY DEPT because the area had never been surveyed at ground level.

396: Also remembers the U.S. ENTOMOLOGIST, JACK DUMBLETON, with whom he climbed MT PERUVIUS. States that many years later, two climbers scrambled up there, got on top and thought they were the first there until they found an old cairn and on further investigation discovered an old aluminium container with JACK DUMBLETON’S name on it.

412: Affirms seeing DEER and WAPITI on some of the less accessible ranges.

Side A stops

Side B starts

024: Describing one WAPITI that he shot around the STILLWATER area, says the animal had adapted to its immediate environment. “He had great big paddy feet where…he’d lived in that swamp country all his life…and he was weighed 900lbs which is a very big animal.” Adds that RED STAG average about 300lbs. Jack Luttrell

065: On the behaviour of the animals, says a WAPITI never showed the same curiosity in him as sometimes the RED DEER would. “I think they’re far more intelligent in self-preservation than ever the RED DEER were.”

073: Talks about one WAPITI that lived near the mouth of the GLAISNOCK and was seen but never shot by several different hunters. “The four years that I was in there, I saw his footprints every time.”

092: Believes the animal would have died of old age by keeping out of sight.

099: Replies that LINDSAY POOLE led the practical aspects of gathering the scientific research material. Adds there were two field hunters attached to DR MURIE to look for specimens while the botanists appeared to work on their own. Also says BUSTER MCKANE was head of the CAMP construction (he was from the NZ FOREST SERVICE).

117: Recalls there was a COOKHOUSE and a COOK (R.C. BORLASE – also from the FOREST SERVICE).

121: Describes when a big flood occurred in the CAMP. Says he shared a tent with COLONEL HOWARD and a wildlife photographer, JIM OLLERENSHAW.

144: Goes on to say that the rain began mid-afternoon and continued. Says they had to shout to each other to be heard above the drumming of the rain on the canvas. At about one in the morning, the COLONEL went to check on the situation and on discovering the river at his feet, called the alarm for everyone to make for higher ground.

156: Says as the last one in the tent, he gathered together HOWARD’S camera and other important gear before also making his escape to the COOKHOUSE which was about five feet higher up.

164: As they had a radio operator and the wireless at that stage was unaffected, a message was relayed out that they were hit by a serious flood and may require assistance. The message, he says, was picked up by amateur radio enthusiasts as far away as AUSTRALIA. However, even the radio operator got flooded out, so by the time ALEX BLACK (of the ALERT) was called in from MILFORD SOUND, he was advised to go in and look for possible survivors or even dead bodies.

175: Laughs that by the time BLACK got to the site, because the rivers fall as quickly as they rise, everyone was back in place and the panic was over.

191: Describes how during the peak of the flood, everyone was standing by a birch tree above the COOKHOUSE and that HOWARD was handing out ropes of twine advising them to tie themselves to a tree in order to survive. Jack Luttrell

197: Recalls the river rose to about six inches around the feet of where they were all assembled and when the rain stopped it started to retreat.

202: While everyone was none the worse off, he remembers a FRENCH botanist who had also panicked a bit and had wrapped himself to a tree with the twine. Says the botanist had also written his last message and put it in a bottle in the hope that rescuers would find it. One of the team found the man tied to the tree and his message corked inside the bottle (laughs).

213: The following day, he says, HOWARD decided that a platform should be built around the birch tree in case a similar flooding occurred. So while JACK and another bushman were building it, they noticed that in the fork of the tree (about six feet up) were “little bits of gravel and sand…the flood at some time had been that high”.

225: They decided, he laughs, to say nothing about it to HOWARD or any of the others. “I think that was the best kept secret of the whole expedition, you know, 'cos it would’ve been abandoned, you know, if it’d…if that sort of thing had got out.”

229: Recalls there was another flood afterwards, but nothing nearly as serious as the first.

236: Mentions that further up the STILLWATER where they had an advance CAMP they experienced another flood and because they were at a low level (HOWARD, OLLERENSHAW, JACK and one other person were sharing a tent there) they took off to higher ground.

243: Remembers he cut a “green” tree down (by splitting it and cutting shavings off it, he says, you can get a fire going that way) and they sheltered under the fly they brought with them.

256: Replies they were in that area until MAY of that year. Adds that HOWARD decided it was too busy so he and OLLERENSHAW, JACK and the ENTOMOLOGIST, DUMBLETON, moved across to the EASTERN side of the WAPITI country where they set up BASE CAMP.

267: It was early MAY, he repeats, when they finally left the area, adding that HOWARD had had all he could take of the FIORDLAND rain. Comments that the COLONEL was 64 years old and although he’d done a lot of shooting he wasn’t easy in bush country. “The spirit was willing but the flesh wasn’t (laughs).”

299: Responding to question, says reports were drawn up by marine biologists, botanists etc. Mentions a woman scientist who recently died (RUTH MASON) conducted an analysis of the stomach contents of WAPITI carcasses that were brought out.

304: Mentions again that the expedition was aimed at finding out how the WAPITI had adapted to such a different environment than the indigenous one of the original 18 introduced animals. Says, however, that DR MURIE came to the conclusion that if there were any changes they couldn’t assess whether they were due to a change of environment or hybridisation with RED DEER.

315: “They (WAPITI) came out of, you know, the open country from WYOMING – those lovely dry easygoing hills. How they ever acclimatised…to stick ‘em into a place like that, y’know it’s…fantastic that they ever got going.”

322: “It’s the greatest thing they’ve ever done to have the WAPITI.”

329: Considers that the biggest trophy head of the WAPITI he shot ranks about eighth of the best in total. Says the antlers are 58inches long on one side and 57 inches on the other with fourteen points.

338: Says it was easier for him to carry it out then that it would be today because the track was well-formed. But following the big helicopter cull of DEER during the 1970s and 80s, he says, all the old animal tracks have been lost because of the regeneration of vegetation.

347: A good bushman, he continues, would take about a day and a half to walk through an area which he and his peers would have done in about five or six hours. This, he repeats is because of the regrowth and also the loss of any dominant animal tracks.

367: Talking about the “one that got away”, says it was a large bull with about 12 cows which escaped into the bush on discovering he was stalking it in the BLIGH SOUND area. Adds that as the hunting pressure bore down on the animals, once they knew someone was around they moved into the heavy bush and stayed there.

379: “If I had my time over again, instead of hunting the open country I’d be hunting all the ribbonwoods because that’s where they are.”

390: On the sound of the ‘bugle’ or mating call of the WAPITI, says it sounds magnificent out in the open country. “It’s the greatest animal noise as far as I’m concerned…even when I hear them whistle out on the deer farms, I think gosh, you know, my mind just flashes back to FIORDLAND.”

400: Affirms that the legislation maintains that both WAPITI and RED DEER are considered noxious animals and government policy is still aimed at their extermination in order to protect the plant life and environment of the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK. “I think there’s a place for both…they’re a wonderful animal, a great asset and it brings a lot of people into the WAPITI country, you know, they love to hunt.”