Person recorded: John Robert (Jock) Murdoch

Date: 14 January 2004

Interviewed and Abstracted by Morag Forrester

Tape Counter: Sony TCM 939

Tape 1 Side A

002: Talks about place of birth - OREPUKI before shifting to FAIRAX at the age of two. It was a bush farm in the LONGWOODS district.

009: Mentions going to primary school at FAIRFAX before going to work in the SAWMILLS. There were about fifty pupils at the school.

018: States he didn’t like school, was more interested in being in the hills and the bush. Left school at thirteen years old.

027: Born 1925.

030: Says the first SAWMILL he worked at was in the GLENBURN VALLEY at the back of OTAUTAU, then shifted to other MILLS as he got more experienced.

034: Recalls his first wage was 9 shillings/day.

041: States he continued working till nineteen years old when he joined up with the occupation force of the NZ ARMY in JAPAN. Spent about eighteen months training and service there.

047: Mentions DEER CULLING which he took up after a short stint back at the SAWMILLING on his return to NZ. The MILL wages had gone up to 30 shillings/day. First wage CULLING was 12 pounds/week (with a bonus of between 4s6d & 7s6d for each tail and 10shillings for a skin). Their food was airdropped.

053: Knock on the door – tape stopped.

057: States his FATHER’S name was TOM MURDOCH. He was a good AXEMAN in competitive chopping and sawing. He worked as SAWMILLER before taking up the bush farm.

066: Says his great grandfather came from SCOTLAND. His FATHER was born and brought up in SOUTHLAND, at SEAWOOD MOSS.

073: Details his MOTHER’S background. Born CAROLINE BARNETT, brought up in TOKANUI. Says her MOTHER (his GRANDMOTHER) was MAORI and her FATHER came from SCOTLAND.

082: Remembers his GRANDMOTHER as kind, soft-spoken and took great interest in her grandchildren.

087: Talks about his BROTHERS and SISTERS.

111: Referring back to his childhood, remembers playing rugby football at school. Mostly they made their own fun HUNTING wild PIGS.

118: Recalls his first time DEER STALKING. It was in the early war years (1939).There were three of them. They heard a big STAG roaring; they walked along in a row spread out. The STAG jumped up and he took a quick shot. Says a mate later said: “You always remember your first, but you don’t remember all these other ones.”

139: Explains how he learned to HUNT. He was taken under the wing of an old shooter. Recalls he was so keen, thrilled, nerves would be shaking. Admits some of his early shooting left a lot to be desired but the experience was very exciting. NOTHING could replace the thrill of the shoot.

161: Talks further about taking up DEER CULLING saying that when he started there was no training. It was experience built up on the job. His employers took the view that they would hire CULLERS – a few would leave after a few days, but there was the odd one or two who stuck at it, year after year.

170: Mentions that was when he worked under the DEPARTMENT OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS (1950s). Says when the FORESTRY SERVICE took over CULLING operations, things changed. They provided huts, set up training camps.

185: Explains that it was the WILDLIFE branch of the IAD that he worked for. They had been DEER CULLING before WWII. They initially CULLED but to little effect in reducing herd numbers so eventually the policy was to shoot everything.

195: States that CULLING took place anywhere the DEER had been liberated. THAR, CHAMOIS, WAPITI, all thrived in the NZ climate.

203: Recalls his first block for the IRD was at MONOWAI and explains they had to walk in. They were allocated two AIRDROPS of supplies a year. They worked the block for seven months, then a fortnight’s leave, then on to another BLOCK in winter to shoot GOATS, THAR OR CHAMOIS.

217: Gives more details of living on the block at MONOWAI for the first seven months.

224: Describes how food would go off quickly. The KEAS were also a problem if they got to the supply bags first..

237: In response to question says he set up camp deep in the valleys. It would be two/three day walks into the FIORDLAND mountains. In CANTERBURY it was different with the DEER being on the upper valleys.

244: Says on a typical day: “You got up early morning, if you were in a valley, you shot at the bush edges, then climbed onto the tops and shot all day. That was the procedure every day… Look over the mountains and wonder what the next valley looked like…Take a hundred rounds of ammunition with you, explore all that country… It was a wonderful life. Free.”

262: Explains that in MONOWAI it was more HUNTING involved than shooting because of the thick bush. It was the opposite in CANTERBURY.

280: Says no matter how big a day you had, you just got up and did it all over again. Your muscles were hardened to the work.

285: Recalls how wet weather prevented much activity. Couldn’t move around in fog.

287: Background noise so tape stopped then restarted.

291: Talks of getting an annual tally of about a thousand DEER while shooting in the MONOWAI area. Because of the fog, the number was never as much as you’d get further up country.

299: Recalls BERNIE CHANEY saying he could shoot a record tally on the MONOWAI BLOCK if they’d had CANTERBURY weather. Fog was the downfall.

314: Says he worked FIVE YEARS for the IAD, without a break. Two seasons on his own, one in the SHOTOVER and one in FIORDLAND.

322: While for some the isolation was a problem, relates that it was not a problem for him. He was more sorry at having to come out of the valleys at the end of the season.

331: Admits it was not a job for a married man. You had to have no responsibilities, just concentrate on what you were doing.

341: Recalls that he found it difficult to socialise when he came out. Shyness for one thing, but also his hearing would be affected. Says it got very keen, like a DEER’S so that the noise of traffic or people talking would be difficult. In the bush, he learned to see and hear like a DEER; only thing he couldn’t do was attain their sense of smell.

351: Remembers being in country where the DEER would run up to you having never seen humans before.

359: Mentions a mob of stags that surrounded him and his mate BERNIE. He took a shot and belted out of there.

374: States that after his FIVE-YEAR stint he took up SHEARING with some short spells of CULLING. He and another bloke had their own SHEARING contract and worked round the WESTERN DISTRICT.

386: Recalls that his CULLING work included a stint with the FORESTRY SERVICE. He didn’t enjoy it as much. They put in too many huts and tracks. Says they devised a bonus system for their wages.

394: Mentions that he and BERNIE CHANEY were the last to shoot SKINS for the government. They did a straight contract of 1pound/skin. They shot 1800 in a valley near the LINDIS PASS and that was the last of the SKIN-HUNTING DEER CULLERS. They discovered that others further north were getting 1pound/tail.

403: Explains SKINNING the big STAGS, the hard work involved.

Tape stopped

Tape 1 Side A ends

Tape 1 Side B starts

007: Opens with discussion on dates/chronology

017: Talks about his MARRIAGE in 1960 and how he met his WIFE, PHYLLIS MASON/TOWNSEND.

037: Says he has one adopted DAUGHTER, (JOY) TWO GRANDCHILDREN, (ANDREW and DEBBIE) and TWO GREATGRANDCHILDREN.

046: Mentions PHYLLIS’S MOTHER being AUSTRALIAN, and FATHER being a SOUTHLANDER.

054: States that PHYLLIS didn’t work when they were first MARRIED. But later on she ran a depot of the VENISON FACTORY he was involved in from their home in the LILLBURN VALLEY.

062: Talks about getting involved in the FACTORY at MOSSBURN. Says PADDY KILGARRIF, who started it, invited him to join as a SHAREHOLDER. Says he also provided much of the VENISON MEAT when he went HUNTING.

095: Says the business was a great success.

109: States the difference between CULLING and MEAT HUNTING. The latter was a lot harder, especially in the pre-helicopter days when they had to carry out the carcasses.

119: Mentions he used PACKHORSES. He had a jetboat but didn’t use it much. Took HORSES into the WHITESTONE and SUNNYSIDE STATION. Then further in after they made a raft and cut a track into the GREBE VALLEY. Also into the HUNTER MOUNTAINS.

137: Describes taking the HORSES in to shoot a load.

148: Says he did this for about four years.

164: Describes how they went DEER HUNTING with CHOPPERS. At first, the SHOOTERS were dropped off, they’d SHOOT what they could, then the HELICOPTER came in and took them to the next area to go through the same process, and so on.

170: Says it wasn’t long before that changed. Mentions someone whose surname was HENHAM who decided the SHOOTERS could fire from the CHOPPERS. He did it by automatic rifle.

178: Mentions the rifles they used.

199: Describes the increasing competitiveness that hit the DEER HUNTING industry in the mid-70s. Says there was SABOTAGE of machines and equipment.

212: Says the HELICOPTERS achieved in just a few years what the CULLERS had been trying to do over thirty years.

217: Asserts that not having the DEER has ruined the bush. The once-accessible valleys (with tracks made by DEER) are covered in scrub and rubbish you can’t get near them. Says much of these areas and retired farm country, such as MAVORA and the EGLINTON, are now at risk of major FIRE hazards.

227: Says the DEER are building up again, but it will never be as before.

246: Refers back to his CULLING days and finding natural ‘bivvy’ sites. FIORDLAND has no dry leaning rocks.

254: Maintains that for all its harsh conditions, he still liked best CULLING in FIORDLAND. Explains why.

262: Admits that CANTERBURY was pretty good, up in the LEWIS PASS area. You had to know how to shoot DEER in the high blocks.

266: Explains why he later took up DEER FARMING. Says he reckoned the DEER would become ‘shot out’ and with the price of VENISON so good it would be worthwhile.

282: Says he had 70 DEER before the authorities introduced a licensing system. States his FARM was at the WEST DOME near MOSSBURN. PADDY KILGARRIF and he took up one half of stock lease rights, and WILSON NEIL took the other half on property owned by the TAYLOR BROTHERS, who got half the stock they bred.

293: Mentions that after this first attempt during which he learned from a few mistakes, he bought a small FARM on GILLESPIE RD, at THE KEY and struck out on his own farming DEER.

299: Says it was only about 14 acres to start with. He began capturing live DEER and farmed them with DAVE COCKBURN at MT PROSPECT.

302: States he was the first person to farm DEER in the TE ANAU BASIN. Mentions TIM WALLIS had MARAROA and he would help GEORGE REID (Manager) to velvet his STAGS.

305: Recalls taking his first few DEER to a sale. “The farmers were watching me and I took DEER to three sales and I topped the sale (price) in the three of them. The prices were in the paper and they could see they’d better get into DEER FARMING too.”

311: Describes handling the DEER at first. How they didn’t know what a fence was. He had to build yards and fences so they wouldn’t break their necks. But they adapted after a while.

320: Explains the DEER needed to be handled quietly in order to ensure they would respond better. It’s different now, he says, because they’re farmed already.

327: Claims to have put up the first DEER fence. They put up high DEER netting which was $20/coil but soon went up to about $300/coil. He bought five miles of it and the posts etc. The authorities came and had a look at the fencing and decided to make it the STANDARD DEER FENCE for NEW ZEALAND. “We pioneered that. Definitely.”

344: Gives details of some of the problems faced. With fences, yards, etc.

357: Mentions selling up his shareholdings in the factory at MOSSBURN to TIM WALLIS.

376: Talks about the decision to retire from the FARM.

380: Says he still HUNTS recreationally.

387: Gives his opinion of the advantages of learning to go DEER SHOOTING for young people. They learn to become self-reliant.

401: Mentions his mentors, JACK EDEN and ARCHIE CLARK, one of the best in the country, he says.

411: Describes ARCHIE as a hard man. Also mentions BILL CHISHOLM. Says they were good, hard men.

Tape 1 Side B Ends

Tape 2 Side A Starts

005: Picks up where he left off. Describes JACK EDEN as a “terrific shot” with long-barrelled rifle.

021: Talks about the friendships formed during the CULLING days. At the end of the season, they’d all meet up for a good time in QUEENSTOWN.

039: Says that by the end of the fortnight’s holiday, it was “great to get back into the BLOCKS.”

050: Recalls the ‘wet days’.

057: Mentions going PIG HUNTING.

062: Says he didn’t do any POSSUM work for the government. Referring to photograph on table he describes it as showing the skins of 1500 POSSUMS.

070: States they were all poisoned with cyanide. They had come out of the WHITESTONE. Says he was lucky because those skins fetched the highest price ever for POSSUM skins. Browns were $24 each.

080: Mentions visiting AUSTRALIA twice to take part in CHOPPING competitions as part of an AXEMAN’S team.

090: Describes taking part in a recent competition at BROWNS village (not far from WINTON) and how he won THIRD place in the axe throwing contest.

099: Mentions CATHERINE MACDONALD from WYNDHAM and himself taking part in JACK AND JILL double-handed sawing contests. They were SOUTH OTAGO CHAMPIONS for a while, he says. They had a rating of third in NZ at the time (1980s/90s). [Later, Jock said he was made a life member of the NZ Axeman’s Association. And he took the NZ Masters Championship in Dunedin in February 1994.]

114: Referring back to earlier memories of the TE ANAU BASIN, says a mate and he came up for a visit once and this friend bought two lakeside sections for forty pounds each. Describes the vegetation as manuka and bracken.

124: Says it was a very small community but a great crowd that lived there. Remembers TOM PLATO and his family well and old GUS MCGREGOR. Person recorded: Jock Murdoch

133: Recalls also the former INTERNAL AFFAIRS ranger, CURLY MCIVOR. Illustrates this with a story of MCIVOR trying to persuade his bosses to employ JOCK and BERNIE CHANEY for CULLING work in the area. “Fella asks ‘what block are MURDOCH and CHANEY gonna have?’ and CURLY says ‘all bloody FIORDLAND’ (laughs)”

153: Mentions the BROWN BROTHERS who had a SAWMILL up the EGLINTON VALLEY. Says they cut bridge beams and so all the bridges through to MILFORD SOUND were built with red birch beams.

159: Recalls another occasion involving CURLY who used to set traps for STOATS through the EGLINTON. Says he had the BIRDLIFE perfect right through the valley.

161: Describes how the STOAT traps were set with old fish scraps from a shop in INVERCARGILL which CURLY put in an old onion bag. He would take that up to the EGLINTON and set the traps with this bait right through to the HOMER TUNNEL. Says CURLY wiped the STOATS out.

181: Follows this up with another story about CURLY SHOOTING CATS that hung around the town dump.

190: In response to question, says it’s the wilderness that drew him to FIORDLAND. Expresses disappointment that there’s less and less of it now. None of it now is unexplored with CHOPPERS and the rest, he says.

206: Thinks it’s too late now to prevent development in the area.

211: Says he thinks some bad decisions have been made – the EGLINTON VALLEY again comes to mind. Believes there was nothing nicer than to go up there and see HEREFORD CATTLE grazing on the flats. “They retired it, as they call it and it’s just gonna grow a wilderness of dry grass and rubbish and a fire will ruin the lot of it one day.”

217: Sees a similarity with the policy over DEER control. Says the authorities want to lock up the country to turn it into wilderness. But thinks it doesn’t work that way.

222: On his move to WINTON, he admits he has a place over at MONOWAI. Says he’s got to get back there as often as he can.

233: Brief mention of his time in JAPAN where he talks about the radiation effects after NAGASAKI. Believes he wasn’t affected.

253: Says his earlier experiences HUNTING in the bush proved useful for a soldier.

261: Interview ENDS. Tape 2 Side A stopped.