Person recorded: Kathlyn Anne (Kathy) Gilligan

Date of Interview: 16 February 2004

Interviewer and abstractor: Morag Forrester

Tape counter: Sony Cassette Corder TCM 393

Tape 1 Side A Starts

004: Begins by giving DOB: born in 1933 and that she was born in TIMARU as KATHLYN ANNE SWAIN. The family lived in TIMARU for about three years then moved south by which time she had a younger BROTHER (JOHN).

016: Gives broadbrush of her early years up to her marriage to TERRY GILLIGAN whom she met in 1953.

034: Says he more or less proposed a fortnight after they were introduced and had begun courting. They were married in MARCH 1957, although she didn’t actually come to live with him in TE ANAU until the following MAY: “Which caused a furore in TE ANAU”, she laughs.

055: Explains her PARENTS were from CANTERBURY, adding that her FATHER was a BRICKLAYER/PLASTERER and her MOTHER’S background was ALBURY, as FARMERS. Her maiden name was KIDD.

086: Recalls having very early memories of TIMARU despite being so young when they left.

106: States her FATHER built their home in HERBERT STREET, INVERCARGILL in 1938 and she went to NORTH SCHOOL PRIMARY, then in 1947 she went on to SOUTHLAND GIRLS HIGH SCHOOL.

112: Remembers there were about sixty pupils in each class at primary school and that she was mad about HISTORY and good at ARITHMETIC.

129: Considers she wasn’t clever but worked hard whereas it was the reverse for her BROTHER.

136: Explains that at that time, WWII was underway and her FATHER was enlisted in the NZ army. Says they were hard times, her MOTHER learnt to sew and they had a huge vegetable garden. The section was big, with lawns and a tennis court.

153: However, she believes their upbringing was healthy, partly due to what they could grow in the veggie garden; her MOTHER would preserve seasonal fruit. A lasting memory was cases of oranges and apples.

161: Recalls her FATHER being in the army for about three years and that he’d had about three final leaves but was never actually sent overseas especially after his last army medical showed he had haematosis.

166: Mentions her maternal GRANDMOTHER living with them. Says she was a strong influence in her upbringing.

172: After the war, she says, her FATHER decided to set up his own business, and recalls visiting CHRISTCHURCH where he bought an ex-army Chevrolet truck.

180: Remembers that before he bought the vehicle, he was lugging buckets and implements around on an old bicycle. Adds that he worked all hours and within five years had established himself.

190: Responding to question, believes her FATHER was the disciplinarian of the family, although they were given quite a bit of freedom. However, she admits since bringing up her own DAUGHTER that she was perhaps more lax than her PARENTS.

199: Recalls her GRANDMOTHER having a young outlook, more so than her MOTHER who was more old-fashioned but also had a “marvellous sense of humour”.

211: Talks about attending SOUTHLAND GIRLS HIGH which she didn’t like at all compared with primary. “Girls were meant to behave in a certain way.”

223: Relates a story in which she was taken to task for not wearing her school uniform while shopping in town with her MOTHER after school hours.

233: Gives another example of what was expected of young women at the school IN 1948. There was an address from a matron at KEW HOSPITAL as suitable careers in those days were in nursing or teaching. Says one student announced she wanted to become a PILOT, a statement which drew gasps of horror.

246: Declares the same student did become a PILOT, in fact was an instructor for the SOUTHLAND AERO CLUB.

257: Says she achieved school certificate at the age of fifteen and was too young for the following year’s intake of students at teacher’s training college. However, she then became ill for a year due to a nervous breakdown (caused by the strain of working towards the school cert exams). It was her GRANDMOTHER who engineered her getting her first job.

279: Mentions making a few friends at school and that there are still ten of them who meet each year for lunch. One friend in particular, BETTY HENDERSON, she still feels very close to, “we’re like sisters”.

292: In answer to question, says games were encouraged at school: tennis and softball which she loved.

302: Recalls starting work at an ACCOUNTACY firm in INVERCARGILL in 1950 and was there six years. Her first wage was 28 shillings and sixpence a week, or seven pounds and ninepence per month (after tax).

308: Declares it was “unheard of” to go flatting. Young people might board somewhere but never as cheaply as at home (she paid her MOTHER 10 shillings a week.)

315: Relates a story about working on a particular bookkeeping machine which “kept throwing out ‘ones’” apparently because of her natural electricity.

335: Says when she and TERRY decided to get married, she wanted to earn more money. She handed in her resignation from the job because they wouldn’t grant her a pay rise. But the job she moved on to didn’t last too long. The accountant was moving and she moved employment with him and doubled her wages within a year.

348: Responding to question, says for social life she went dancing. At the Victoria Concert Chamber in the Civic Theatre Building, at the St. John’s Church socials on Friday nights and square dancing at the YMCA building on Thursdays. She also loved the movies and theatre.

355: On dating, says she had a few boyfriends. But believes her PARENTS were far more leery about her connections compared with her BROTHER. “John was given a lot more latitude than I was.”

362: Mentions TE ANAU and how she met TERRY on her first visit to the town. Recalls it was a time when a friend, MARGARET MITCHELL’S father was building a crib in TE ANAU.

367: Vividly remembers meeting TERRY for the first time. “It was along the waterfront, just beside LION’S PARK.”

378: Says he had just started on the TRANSPORT business and was working colossal hours, but he would make it to the dances she used to attend at MOSSBURN later on.

385: Tells how he had tentatively proposed on the last night of her holiday in TE ANAU. Says that was in 1953 and they were ENGAGED in 1955 and MARRIED in 1957.

392: Says they took their time because it was most important to her to avoid an unhappy marriage having seen so many of them.

399: The WEDDING was held in NORTH INVERCARGILL PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH.

400: Says she’d met his PARENTS who by then had divorced, or at least separated.

403: Mentions her own PARENTS taking a little time to get used to the idea of her marrying TERRY.

406: Recalls visiting his MOTHER in DUNEDIN, then his FATHER who by then was working at the FREEZING WORKS at MAKAREWA. Says BARNEY was just who he was. He would tell great stories to his children when they were small. However, he was a wealthy man and had lost a great deal and TERRY was determined it wasn’t going to happen to him, which is why he worked so hard and didn’t drink (alcohol).

Tape 1 Side A ends

Tape 1 Side B starts

003: Opens in mid-discussion about their honeymoon. They had taken a month off to tour the SOUTH ISLAND, but because of TERRY’S business commitments, they were keen to get back to TE ANAU.

021: Adds that they didn’t take another vacation for another three years when they went to the NORTH ISLAND but it poured with rain so much they were back within a fortnight.

029: Later holidays were taken in QUEENSTOWN because it was only two hours from home should he have been needed for the business.

033: Recalls he worked very long hours.

043: Mentions her move up to TE ANAU after the wedding. “It was a big, big shock to me. I didn’t think I could stay. I didn’t like it.”

047: At first, she says, they lived in TOM PLATO’S place in DUSKY STREET. There was no power, only tank water, and no sewerage although there was an outhouse at the bottom of the section. Cooking was on a coal range. This was in 1957.

054: Remembers learning to pump up a TILLEY lamp to light it. And laughs at never going through a doorway without the habit of flicking down her hand for a light switch, even though she knew there wasn’t any power. A few sentences later on, she mentions that they didn’t have any local neighbours living nearby (many of the dwellings were holiday cribs).

070: However, she says they were only there a few months till moving into their own place in AUGUST 1957. It was opposite the CHEMIST’S SHOP. One of the highlights was having a tub for washing clothes.

095: Tells how when she went to INVERCARGILL and had to have goods sent to TE ANAU, people would ask her “You’re living up there, the back of beyond. How on earth do you make out up there?”

100: Describes herself as extremely shy, but she made an effort to join clubs. The first meeting she went to was the TE ANAU LADIES SOCIAL CLUB.

114: Talks about one friend she made, BILLY KEOWN, who was married to RON, an NZR roads services driver. She worked at the POST OFFICE EXCHANGE. Says they had a firm friendship, one that was very close. BILLY died about three years ago.

119: Explains that very early on, BILLY offered KATHY her job at the POST OFFICE while she was taking a vacation for a few weeks. So, she was quickly trained at the EXCHANGE which had eighteen subs and four communication lines out and the MORSE CODE for MILFORD SOUND.

124: Says she worked there a month. This was followed by an offer from LAWSON BURROWS to do some temporary work in the FIORDLAND TRAVEL office.

133: Recalls being given a job to balance the books for the company. This she did within four hours.

139: The following CHRISTMAS she was back doing temporary work for the EXCHANGE.

154: Mentions their DAUGHTER, (PENNY) wasn’t born till more than five years after they were married, which meant she was able to travel around with TERRY when she wasn’t working. Sometimes to CENTRAL OTAGO, LUMSDEN, MILFORD SOUND, or just around THE BASIN.

166: At the same time, she says, she was learning to sew on a treadle sewing machine.

174: Topic moves on to the FIORDLAND PLAYERS. Says they didn’t start up till 1960. Explains it all began from an idea sparked by DEREK FENWICK. The first public meeting to sound out whether there’d be any support from the community was a major dampener on their spirits. Says that apart from herself and BILLY, only one other wannabe actor turned up – a mouse.

195: Says they called another meeting which achieved an attendance of seven people, and by the third there were fifteen. So they put on three one-act plays all directed by DEREK.

199: Explains that in those days there was no TV, electricity had only come to the town a couple of years before (1958). So the hall was packed, she says, people just loved it.

205: Recalls that she was the first on stage, in the first play, on the first night. “I was so scared.” But within seconds she was hooked: “It was just a real high for me, I loved it.”

218: Says though the biggest production in her life was the birth of her DAUGHTER. But after that, she believes there’s nothing put on by the FIORDLAND PLAYERS that she’s not been involved with.

224: States the productions were first held in the old hall thanks to the hall committee which was very supportive.

234: Remembers that in the second year, they made fifteen pounds profit, money they put aside for their next show. Ever since, she’s been responsible for the FIORDLAND PLAYERS’ budgeting.

239: Affirms 2004 is its 44th year.

242: Laughs at first on being asked about how easy it is to attract potential thespians. Then says that in the 1960s it was extremely difficult to find men who would be interested in acting on stage. It was considered the opposite of what ‘real men’ do. Even today, she says, they’re always short of male actors.

250: Adds that having a transient population makes it difficult too.

257: Explains that pulling together the behind the scenes work has involved her ‘ruthless’ budgeting. And that it’s all been voluntary work. The company’s assets are now valued at $100,000.

275: Mentions the FIORDLAND PLAYERS bought its own rehearsal premises ten years ago, called ‘THE SHED’ which was finally paid off about five years ago. (Later added that they were greatly assisted in this by a substantial grant from the Trust Bank, Southland.) Partly the finances were boosted by actions taken in 1980.

284: Mentions some years ago discussing grant funding with a representative from CHRISTCHURCH and had said then that the company was happy to work with a similar group in TUATAPERE and with the FIORDLAND COLLEGE drama section for lighting.

295: Says that a considerable grant was allocated which helped form the basis of the group’s stage lighting, although some are still hired. It now has 36 lights, the COLLEGE has nine and TUATAPERE has some lights itself.

301: Admits that “sheer determination and dedication” has brought the FIORDLAND PLAYERS to where it is today.

307: Gives reason for buying the SHED for rehearsals. It also provides a workshop, office, kitchen and other facilities. Before its purchase, they rehearsed in the LANDS & SURVEY office, in shops, in the COLLEGE gymnasium, classrooms and even at her own home.

328: Of her own productions, says she’d presented two before 1980. That year she co-produced a big MGM production. Overall she’s done about 26 of the scores of plays put on by the FIORDLAND PLAYERS.

345: Praises TERRY for his total support during her years of involvement in the theatre company. He becomes “chief householder” a lot of the time. For a while he was also the PLAYERS’ barman and when he still had the TRANSPORT business, his trucks were used to carry all the stage paraphernalia as well as the cast and crew.

357: Says one of her aims is to get TERRY on stage. “He’s a born actor and he will not (go on stage).” She adds: “He’s been my mainstay, as my daughter has been too. They’ve both been brilliant. Because, especially when I was working, it was a terrific commitment to do a show.”

362: Explains preparations can take up to three months before even auditions are held, and thereafter the commitment is even greater. But she says, it’s also all about having a lot of fun.

373: Considers the most memorable production for her was one of her own, Cinderella and HRH in 1998. “That was a buzz.”

377: Mentions her grandson took part, as a mouse. She also says her son-in-law (LINDSAY PEARCE aka PERCY)has been stage manager for a number of years and has been very helpful and supportive.

385: Recalls there were about 130 cast and crew involved in the production. There were 60 on stage - “a very difficult stage to work on (the TE ANAU Hall)”.

390: Says it was another production, As Time Goes By, which required the biggest input from backstage because as eras changed (1890s to 1990s) so did make-up, hair and costumes.

398: Responding to question says any night can be the best, whether first, middle or last. However, she says they can gauge the audiences. On Fridays, they’re a quiet, listening audience which can be extremely hard to play to.

402: States having seen a cast actually ‘stage struck’ because they knew members of another theatre company were among the audience.

413: Teamwork, she says, is key. She does a lot of training while a lot of the cast are naturals anyway. But she admits there has to be a team leader.

Tape 1 Side B ends

Tape 1 Side A starts

001: Continues discussing an incident in which one lead actor tried to take a production his way and it brought the whole thing close to disaster.

018: Talking about the costumes, some of which are quite elaborate, she praises the wardrobe team who at present include MARGO SHAW and MARY HARTZ. Says they excel at specialised costuming.

024: For example, she says, MARGO has made a camel, a horse and a cat for stage props.

031: Recalls some of the better actors the company has had. They include NORM DIEHL, who moved to CHRISTCHURCH, and TIM LAMBETH who is still in the area but not currently involved with the PLAYERS. (Says he also lives in EUROPE for part of the year).

038: Adds there are still many other good actors, SANDRA BALL who is very supportive of new recruits.

045: Relates a story concerning one actor who was undergoing personal difficulties and SANDRA supported him giving his lines as well as her own when he nearly froze on stage, despite heavy prompting.

067: Admits drama goes on backstage as well as front but most of the time it occurs behind her back which she prefers.

089: Community support, she says, is good if they stage musicals but the audience for plays is usually smaller. With the latter, they divide the hall to create a smaller space.

107: Insists on seating being in a curved auditorium style, if possible, rather than straight lines.

116: Referring again to what audiences want, says TE ANAU folk have requested laughs or foot-tapping. They prefer to be entertained. But she says it’s increasingly difficult to find good comedy scripts.

126: Looking back, she would not have believed in 1960 that she would still be involved in the FIORDLAND PLAYERS in 2004.

144: The topic switches away from theatre to bringing up her DAUGHTER, PENNY. “I did it by myself because TERRY wasn’t there….(working in) TRANSPORT in those days was a killer of families. He’s said he just didn’t see enough of PENNY when she was small and they are so close and always have been extremely close.”

153: Says PENNY was easy to bring up. She was a good kid. Admits PENNY could “swear like a trooper by the time she was three” years old. The house being next door to the TRANSPORT yard in those days meant she would overhear the everyday hollers and yells from the drivers who didn’t curb their language in the company of children.

172: Talks about ‘bottle and plate’ parties being held regularly as part of the social life among their circle of friends. Once a month they’d get together in each other’s homes. All the children would also attend. It kept costs down and meant they didn’t have to pay for babysitters either.

198: Recalls that up to the age of four, PENNY was on antibiotics (tonsillitis) so they did a lot of travelling to visit the doctor in LUMSDEN.

205: Remembers neighbours being very supportive, particularly the time she contracted HONG KONG flu. Says TERRY was away so her friends BILLY and BETTY (next door neighbour) looked after PENNY.

223: Mentions living at the house on MILFORD ROAD until 1969 when TERRY resigned from the TRANSPORT business which by then had amalgamated into NORTHERN SOUTHLAND. Adds she thinks they may not have survived as a family if he hadn’t given up the job because his hours were back at the extreme level they’d been when they first married.

234: By then, too, says she’d begun to hate living on the main road due to the fact that, in summer, it got so busy that people were parking in their driveway.

239: Describes her present home site then as being very quiet, with no neighbours either side.

245: Recalls that at about that time, she was asked to takeover the office work at FIORDLAND MOTOR LODGE. By then, PENNY was at school.

260: Mentions that towards the end of TERRY’S involvement in the TRANSPORT business, he’d appointed GEORGE GREER to takeover the office work, effectively making her redundant. Admits she was not at all happy about that. “TERRY believed that he should always look after me.”

264: States, however, that it was expected she would cook meals for the men and the travellers. Adds that her niece, SUSAN MCDAID (née EDWARDS), still describes her school holidays with them as being like “living on a railway station” as people came and went all the time.

279: Talks about her involvement on several committees in the town. Social Club, TE ANAU Public Hall & Sports Association, (for 16 years) and the FIORDLAND PLAYERS (for more than 40 years).

289: Says fundraising meant baking and sewing for days before an event.

292: As for TERRY, says that in 1963 he was on the TE ANAU town committee and stayed on it for sixteen years.

299: Explains that after the HOTEL burnt down in 1965, the town committee had lost its venue for meetings so they ended up being held in the GILLIGANS’ lounge. Says that as a result, she got to know them all.

308: Recalls she ended up addressing public and other meetings on their behalf. One particularly memorable occasion was having to address a meeting of ministers, including BRIAN TALBOYS, (then MP for SOUTHLAND)

327: Mentions JETBOATING. Says in 1965 TERRY bought a JETBOAT before even buying a car. Adds that he’s an honorary member of the NZ JETBOAT ASSOCIATION and has also been honoured by the SOUTHLAND branch.

331: Recalls the meetings were always held in INVERCARGILL which meant extra time travelling. In 1974 and 1975, TERRY was chairman of the SOUTHLAND branch and KATHY was secretary/treasurer.

343: Lists the main places they’d go JETBOATING, including the ORETI RIVER, MATAURA RIVER, WAIAU RIVER (says before they put the dam in it was a special, beautiful river) the LAKES.

351: Explains that TE ANAU has featured in many aspects for SOUTHLAND JETBOATING, such as the first NATIONAL AGM was held in the old town hall.

357: States that TERRY’S moved on to SHOOTING so they don’t go out on the JETBOAT as much as they did, though they attend some social functions.

375: Describes TE ANAU now as wonderful. “I think the town is great.” But she warns that if its development goes the same way as QUEENSTOWN or WANAKA, it will be ruined.

382: Adds that TE ANAU’S environment is the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK, the EGLINTON VALLEY, MILFORD and DOUBTFUL SOUNDS. “But if we lose this feature that we have in the town now by going concrete and plastic as they have in QUEENSTOWN, I’m going to cry on my cloud forever, I think.”

397: Describes the first time she drove over the GORGE HILL in 1953. Explains she was with RALPH HEENAN from MOSSBURN in his truck. “As I came over the GORGE and saw this BASIN….I think I held my breath…I just felt in awe of what I was looking at.”

404: Gives details of the town itself: there was RADFORD’S store on the waterfront, the hotel, a café on the corner of TE ANAU TERRACE and MILFORD ROAD; a house where the LUXMORE HOTEL stands. Further up was her FATHER-IN-LAW’S crib and then the hall. The POST OFFICE stood at the MEMORIAL corner.

Tape 2 Side A ends

Tape 2 Side B starts

002: Continues with layout of town. In the early 1950’s, she says, LANDS & SURVEY surveyed off the town and it mushroomed then with cribs “dotted through the manuka”.

013: Recalls all the streets had been designated MAORI names beginning with M which caused confusion. Apparently people visiting the town would ask where a certain street was and if they didn’t know the name, they would say it began with M. The reply was “take your pick”. So one of the town committee meetings in their house included re-naming the streets.

029: States that another piece of history from their house occurred when TERRY’S MOTHER took the first telephone from the automatic exchange. It was an official event, again attended by BRIAN TALBOYS, MP, who rang through to their house.

038: Agrees TE ANAU is definitely her home, adding that at one stage, TERRY wanted to relocate to WANAKA although she didn’t want to.

056: Describes the appeal of living where she does. “There’s something tranquil, I think. It’s the mountains giving us the backdrop. Plus it’s a changing panorama every day….it’s just beautiful to me.”

077: Believes a lot of women don’t like TE ANAU, saying that when they were in business they lost a lot of men that they had working for them because their wives didn’t want to stay.

107: Discussion moves on to the more notable people of the town’s past. She says TERRY’S GRANDFATHER, (ERNIE GOVAN) was one because he’d built up the TE ANAU HOTEL’S reputation to reach international status.

116: Says a lot of people see TE ANAU as really only growing from the 1950s onwards. But, she considers, the basis has been there for eternity.

119: Mentions that the first town committee that was selected consisted of nominees. They included REUBEN ALLEN, CARL FISCHER and HANK ANDERSON, ALLAN SPEIGHT, ALF EXCELL and TERRY GILLIGAN.

126: Considers they were dedicated to their task and many others have followed in their footsteps. DR MOORE, JOHN DONALDSON, TED ROBERTS.

132: Others of the town who were considered characters include POP ANDREW, GUS MCGREGOR, TOM PLATO.

137: Among the women was TERRY’S aunt, SYLVIA BAKER who had a boarding house. There were the storekeepers, GEORGE and ALMA RADFORD who set up shop on the corner of MOKOROA ST. and LAKEFRONT DR. in 1949. Says they contributed a lot.

148: Explains this further saying their shop grew to include an office for the bank and which was used by the doctor who was based in LUMSDEN.

153: Recalls ALMA would drive some of the MANAPOURI children to and from school in TE ANAU, in her own station wagon before there was a school bus.

158: Goes on to talk about the SHELTONS (CLIVE and MILDRED) who built the FOUR SQUARE store (that’s still there). The PLATOS built the restaurant and the SPEDENS moved in, (BOB and SARAH) and they built a sports shop.

165: Says the BNZ used that shop until they built a base in town. Before that, they would drive through from LUMSDEN and because of poor communication links, the GILLIGANS, had radio connections with their trucks. Says this helped them monitor the BANK VAN travelling from the town to the SADDLE in case of any emergency arising.

174: Mentions DICK VEENSTRA and STENA MOYNIHAN, a couple of EUROPEAN women who built the LAUNDRY. Says their business just grew.

188: Also mentions DES ARTHUR who was the town barber whose premises also housed a billiards room.

Interruption brings interview to a close

Tape 2 Side B stops