Interviewee: Phil Denny

Date: 17 November 2005

Interviewer and abstracter: Morag Forrester

Tape counter: TCM 939

Tape 1 Side A

005: States he is PHILIP JOHN DENNY and that he was born in 1940 at the HOME STREET MATERNITY UNIT in WINTON.

025: Describes WINTON as a town that services the RURAL SECTOR with branchoffices of the major banks and stock firms.

032: Replies that his FATHER was HUBERT DENNY and that he had once worked in the old POST OFFICE building which is now a restaurant. The family later moved to DUNEDIN where his FATHER was appointed POSTMASTER of the RAVENSBOURNE branch.

039: BLUFF was his FATHER’S birthplace, he says, as it was for his paternal GRANDMOTHER (maiden name of LEE). States his paternal GRANDFATHER worked at sea before the two married and settled in BLUFF.

049: Remembers his GRANDPARENTS well, adding that his GRANDFATHER DENNY died in the early 1950s but his GRANDMOTHER lived through to the 1970s.

056: Mentions that the DENNY name is of SCOTTISH origin.

058: His MOTHER’S (GWENDOLINE) family name was HURLE from FORTROSE. Adds that she was born in the coastal town, went to the local primary school and SOUTHLAND GIRLS HIGH SCHOOL in INVERCARGILL.

066: Explains that his PARENTS met at the POST OFFICE at WAIMAHAKA where his father was a TELEGRAPHIST.

072: States he was the eldest of three CHILDREN – GEOFFREY and MICHAEL-following in descending order from him with a ten-year difference between the eldest and youngest.

081: Primary school was at WINTON until they moved to RAVENSBOURNE where he attended school followed by a term at OTAGO BOYS HIGH SCHOOL in DUNEDIN before the family shifted again.

087: His FATHER was promoted to a posting at MAYFIELD in MID-CANTERBURY, he continues, and the family settled there where he attended ASHBURTON HIGH SCHOOL.

099: Referring back to WINTON PRIMARY, he replies that it was quite a large school.

105: Considers that for school-age children, it is probably not helpful to move house as much as his family did and explains why.

116: Goes on to say that he left school shortly before he was sixteen years old and went to work on his maternal GRANPARENTS’ FARM at FORTROSE on the south coast. Adds that as a younger child he had spent time helping out on the 350-acre FARM during the school vacations.

130: Comments that his GRANDPARENTS had initially set it up as a DAIRY FARM but that later his maternal UNCLES had converted it for SHEEP.

138: Recalls that FORTROSE once had a GENERAL STORE (run by GEORGE MCEWAN), a BLACKSMITH SHOP (run by BILLY CHISHOLM) and that the local BARBER was CHARLIE FREW whose shop also sold confectionery.

154: States that before they took up FARMING, his GRANDPARENTS HURLE had bought and run the BOARDING HOUSE in FORTROSE. The building which still stands in 2006, he says, replaced the original one that was destroyed by fire.

164: His memory, though, is of it being a lodging house for single drivers employed by HAMISH LITTLE who owned and operated a haulage firm.

170: Affirms that nowadays the area is better known for its WHITEBAITING facilities along the nearby MATAURA RIVER outlet. Relates a story told by his MOTHER about how as children, she and others would take a piece of SCRIM (open-weave fabric for wall-lining or upholstery) to scoop up WHITEBAIT. Any leftovers, he adds, were fed to the hens. WHITEBAIT are tiny young fish of various GALAXIAS species (particularly INUNGA) netted near river mouths and eaten whole in fritters etc. They have become increasingly popular as a NEW ZEALAND delicacy and nowadays can fetch high prices (depending on supply and demand).

180: Adds that once WHITEBAITING became commercialised, such practises were rendered obsolete.

184: Explains further that WHITEBAIT behaviour every SPRING is similar to SALMON in that they head upstream from a river mouth to lay spawn before they die.

201: Returning to his early working life, he says he decided to attend LINCOLN (AGRICULTURAL) COLLEGE and study for a diploma in AGRICULTURE.

206: Meantime he went to a SHEARING SCHOOL after which he did some SHEARING work in the FORTROSE area.

212: Continues that he started the course at LINCOLN but realised that the type of work he was likely to find through the COLLEGE would probably only pay about 10 pounds a week. Laughs that he’d been earning about 10 pounds a day as a SHEARER, so decided it would be quicker to SHEAR his way towards getting his own FARM.

At about 243 on the tape, he replies that in 1956 a SHEARER earned about ₤5/10s per 100 SHEEP and that he had reached a capacity of SHEARING about 150 per day. When he left LINCOLN COLLEGE in the summer of 1958/59, the wage had gone up to ₤6 per 100 SHEEP and he was up to 200 a day.

219: Says things were going well for him, but at the age of twenty-one (1961) he was involved in a serious MOTORBIKE accident which put him in hospital for about three months.

222: Explains that he’d lost control of the MOTORBIKE in loose gravel and hit a post. Says he’d been travelling at about 80mph (130kph) and that no other vehicle or person was involved.

229: Adds that he’d been severely concussed, but the only long-term impediment was that he was told not to play RUGBY FOOTBALL – he had been on the MID-CANTERBURY JUNIOR TEAM.

233: Following his recovery, he says, he worked as a TANKER DRIVER for MOBIL OIL but stuck it only for about thirteen months. “It was not my forte.”

239: His next venture, he says, was working for RON OAKLEY – a STUD BREEDER – in MID-CANTERBURY.

262: Admits that he now has a tinge of regret that he hadn’t completed his course at LINCOLN.

277: Replies that apart from the TE ANAU BASIN FARM DEVELOPMENT SCHEME, the government had also implemented an irrigation scheme in the WESTERFIELD area of CANTERBURY which also involved FARM SETTLEMENT.

284: Explains further that it was known as the RANGITATA (RIVER) SCHEME and says that FARM BLOCKS were created between that river and the RAIKAIA RIVER. During winter, when water is not required as much on the FARMS it is used for HYDRO-ELECTRICITY.

293: Says he worked as a SHEPHERD for RON and IVON OAKLEY who ran a ROMNEY (SHEEP) STUD FARM.

302: Comments that working there was quite intensive because of the extra demands required by STUD SHEEP. “LAMBING time – every one was a winner.”

318: “One of those RAMS could be worth four or five thousand pounds (equivalent to fifteen or twenty thousand pounds in 2006)…that was why it was so intensive.”

325: Replies that while working there he earned about fifteen pounds a week, which with currency change became about $30 just before he left the job. Adds that when he took up the farm management job in TE ANAU, he took a drop in wages but “you don’t mind taking a cut if you think there’s something further on the track”.

334: While at OAKLEY’S, he says, he lived at home and paid board to his PARENTS. “You had to help…you couldn’t freeload.”

340: It was always an ambition, he says, to have his own FARM, starting small and working towards a larger operation. “But it never, ever came to that.”

345: Of his marriage, he says he met his WIFE, MARGARET, at the annual STOCK and STATION AGENTS BALL in ASHBURTON.

350: Explains that MARG had just returned from an overseas trip which was cut short due to family illness. It transpired, he says, that he was asked by a mutual friend whether he wished to accompany MARG to the ball. “So it was a blind date, as it were.”

360: Replies that her maiden name is SMITH, adding that her FATHER was the MANAGER of the NATIONAL MORTGAGE COMPANY in ASHBURTON.

363: Says MARG’S second name is GERALDINE (after the town in CANTERBURY where her PARENTS came from). Adds that her FATHER was HEAD AUCTIONEER for NATIONAL MORTGAGE in DUNEDIN where she was born.

370: They were MARRIED, he says, on 11/APRIL/1966 after courting for a while. Adds that they lived in a house on the ROMNEY STUD FARM until they moved to TE ANAU.

377: Recalls visiting TE ANAU once about three years previously when they’d dropped in on a relative living in the GORE district. They had done a day trip around TE ANAU and MANAPOURI, he says.

387: “It just seemed a bit of a quiet…dead end (laughs).”

392: Seeing the need for a new challenge was the reason he applied for the FARM MANAGEMENT job in TE ANAU. Considers he was also “born with STOCK knowledge”.

400: Replies that FARMING was different then in that it was a slower lifestyle. In 1968, he says: “all the STOCK work was done off the back of a horse”.

405: When he started (on the LONG VALLEY BLOCK at LYNWOOD) there were 5000 EWES. By 1973, he says, that number had doubled as had the number of CATTLE.

414: States there were FIELD OFFICERS supervising the BLOCKS as well as MANAGERS and that they provided a solid support system.

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002: Recalls his immediate neighbours were COLIN DAVENPORT on the DALE BLOCK and JIM AGNEW on the KAKAPO BLOCK. These, he says, were all part of the former LYNWOOD STATION as well as the BOUNDARY BLOCK across the (WHITESTONE) river which came off the HOMESTEAD (as the area was called).

014: States that on his BLOCK, about one third had already been PLOUGHED and made into PASTURE. Adds that it had previously been part of the KAKAPO BLOCK before the boundaries were changed.

026: Explains that they used the two rivers as natural boundaries with the (KAKAPO) road running through the middle so the BLOCKS were named KAKAPO, LONG VALLEY and DALE.

030: At the same time, he says, they took the LAKE BLOCK off part of the WAIAU SECTION with the idea of creating a smaller property which could be used for training up MANAGERS. “But it never worked like that (laughs).”

043: Replies that when he arrived on LONG VALLEY, two of his staff were already housed on the property. Recalls there were four houses in total. Names the two as MURRAY (and JAN) MCWHIRTER who left after a couple of years, and HENRY (and ALICE) FERN.

074: LONG VALLEY, he says, covered about 5000 acres, which in terms of land measurement was not the largest as the DALE BLOCK was larger but had a lot more BUSH.

088: The authorities, he says, set it out that if a FARMER had more than about 20,000 STOCK UNITS on a land area of that size, then he was less efficient because he would lose productivity.

096: Now though, he says, there are some within LANDCORP (which emerged from a restructuring of the DEPARTMENT of LANDS and SURVEY in the late 1980s) who are running up to 70,000 STOCK units, citing the LYNMORE BLOCK (in the BASIN) and the CENTRE HILL SETTLEMENT (between BURWOOD and MOSSBURN) and MARAROA.

116: Mentions the former MAVORA RUN which became known as HAYCOCKS. Says CATTLE were grazed right through this area as far as the MAVORA LAKES. It was the same at LONG VALLEY and other BLOCKS, he says, in that the CATTLE were allowed to graze on the riverflats in winter.

129: Now though, he continues, regulations prohibit this so that anyone wanting to fish in the rivers has to bush-bash their way through. “And it’s costing the taxpayer a lot of money with weed control and stuff (laughs).”

135: On the other hand, he says, the growth helps prevent erosion and the risk of severe flooding “so it’s probably a good thing”.

143: RED TUSSOCK and MANUKA were still heavily prevalent at LONG VALLEY when he arrived in 1968.

147: Recalls that on the hilly north side towards the DALE he and his workers formed two miles of tiles (for drainage) at a rate of 5000 tiles/one mile. This went on for several years, he adds. The aim was to create productive land out of swampy acreage.

180: Many of the PADDOCKS, he says, measured about 100 acres and had to be divided and FENCED. “So a lot of work, apart from your STOCK work and everything, was chasing after contractors.”

187: Affirms that L& S contracted local workers. The DRAINAGE work, he says, was begun by BERT WILSON, who used a DIGGER on a FORDSON TRACTOR. Recalls the work was then paid by the CHAIN (an IMPERIAL SYSTEM unit of length 1 ch = 66ft or 20.1168m) instead of today’s (METRIC SYSTEM) method of paying by the metre.

201: The next contractor was brought in to lay out the TILES. Recalls initially employing TUB BROWN to do this work. When he left the area, FRANK FINNIGAN took over until he was recently replaced by ALISTAIR HAWK.

228: While he cannot recall the actual rate per chain of TILES laid, he remembers the contractors were paid far better than he was as FARM MANAGER in 1968. Says his wage was about $35/week –“abysmal” for a seven-day-a-week job.

233: “There’s no such thing on a FARM as MONDAY to FRIDAY (LAUGHS).”

242: Reiterates that when he arrived there were 5000 EWES and 250 COWS and that he was MANAGER at LONG VALLEY for about seventeen years until 1984.

249: States that he got up to about 14,000 EWES and about 700 BREEDING COWS at peak production in 1976.

255: Thereafter, he says, he was back to 4000 EWES because the majority were used to STOCK five SETTLEMENT FARMS on the property. [Under the government’s FARM SETTLEMENT SCHEME, ex-servicemen were granted first option on taking up the new FARMS. Thereafter, civilians could apply but had to fulfil a series of criteria to prove they were financially and physically capable of operating a FARM. Once they had passed these criteria, their names were balloted in a type of lottery system when new FARMS became available.]

260: Of the five FARMS, he says one was taken up by JOHN ATFIELD, who has ended up selling off much of the property while retaining a small lifestyle section. Another was secured by TONY MATTHEWS, who is still there.

277: Nearby was where his home was (as MANAGER) but it has since been moved as the layout was re-jigged. In an area he refers to as the LADY’S MILE, PAT TITHER moved in there. Says that although PAT died, his wife MARY is still living in the district while the FARM is owned and run by their son, PETER.

282: Further along were ROB and IRENE WALSH and a corner of LONG VALLEY was parcelled up with a neighbouring section in the DALE BLOCK and was secured by BILL CALDWELL.

295: Talks about some of the criteria SETTLERS were required to have. A key ingredient was that they had to have been working on a FARM in the immediate two-year period before submitting the BALLOT application.

297: Admits that one or two people “bent the rules”, although only one got turfed off his FARM.

301: Affirms another key requirement was that they could produce a deposit of about $35,000, most of which he thinks was “family” money. Except in the case of PAT TITHER, he says, who had saved from years of working as a SHEARER.

313: Explains further that the government, through L&S, owned the land and put it up for lease to the SETTLERS who could eventually FREEHOLD their properties if they wished, which most did.

323: Says that on the whole the BALLOT SYSTEM worked and that in the case of some SETTLERS proving incapable, then their FARMS were taken off them.

329: Takes the view that some people are excellent as workers so get glowing references from their employers but because they cannot think for themselves they are confronted with mounting difficulties when put in a position of responsibility such as running a FARM.

334: Considers that there are still some SETTLERS in the BASIN who should not be there. Expands on this saying that when L&S was restructured (in 1987) and became LANDCORP,the government wanted the new organisation to start with a clean slate. So, he says, those SETTLERS who may have been struggling to cope, suddenly got their debt written off.

340: Recalls there was a lot of ill-feeling around the district as a result because others had scrimped and saved in order to arrive at the same position – becoming financially solvent without any government handouts.

346: Provides details about the method by which the BALLOT was actually carried out. Applicants’ names were vetted and those that were approved had to undergo an interview by a panel that included the COMMISSIONER of CROWN LANDS and two LAND SETTLEMENT COMMITTEE members.

351: Remembers one of the latter was JOHN PATERSON and the other was BILL PURVIS. The successful applicants were then allowed to have their names submitted for BALLOT. So for the five FARMS on the LONG VALLEY BLOCK that became available, there were about twenty-seven hopefuls.

367: All the names were assigned a marble with a number on it. These were put in a BALLOT BOX and the numbers were drawn out by the COMMISSIONER under police supervision. “So if your marble came out, you got a FARM.”

370: “It was the fairest way they could do it, the lottery system,” he continues. Adds that applicants were allowed five preferences for upcoming FARMS so that if they missed their first option, they could still have another four chances.

375: “Nobody ever turned a FARM down,” he adds even though the one BALLOTTED might not have been first or even second choice.

378: Lists what each successful applicant got when their number came up. As well as the 300-odd acres, there was a ready-built HOUSE, SHEDS, WOOLSHED and FENCED YARDS (and STOCK).

384: Expresses some exasperation recalling that because some of them had to share the use of CATTLEYARDS and the SHEEP DIP, they would turn up at the MANAGER’S YARDS (owned by L&S) to have their STOCK treated. Says he had to work around that even though some of them would “mess around for b----y days (laughs)”.

390: What was particularly annoying, he adds, was that he had to give away all his best ROMNEY EWES which he had worked hard to rear as a MANAGER. “And I ended up with the stuff I would have liked to cull myself.”

398: Once on their FARMS, the SETTLERS were provided with support from an L&S FIELD OFFICER who helped set up the business aspects such as FARM BUDGETING etc. This lasted up to five years and then they were on their own.

404: Says he stayed on at LONG VALLEY until another small BLOCK was settled. It was taken up by JOHN MILLS, he says, who eventually sold the property and now works on environmental matters in WELLINGTON.

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008: Mentions the name of one more SETTLER before he left LONG VALLEY – IAN RUTHERFORD who took up his FARM in 1983.

031: Although they had only just moved into a new home at LONG VALLEY, in 1984 he was shifted to a MANAGER’S position on the FREESTONE BLOCK by SH95 MANAPOURI-TE ANAU ROAD.

046: Some discussion ensues about the term “closing off” LONG VALLEY because it had ceased to exist as a SETTLEMENT BLOCK. Effectively, once all the FARM divisions had been made, there was no further need for L&S to have a representative there.

053: Replies that he would have liked to have taken up a FARM on LONG VALLEY but was unable to get enough money together for the deposit. “Every time we got close enough to have enough saved, they had to increase the area…and the deposit went up another five or six thousand and just kept jumping out of our reach.”

061: Reflects that in the years he has worked as a MANAGER he has enjoyed the challenges of the job. Some he says were “immense” and considers he made a lot of money for the CROWN through good FARMING.

070: At FREESTONE, he says, they had only lived in the house for about six months although he continued to MANAGE the BLOCK for more than a year afterwards.

084: Says he was moved on to his present position at the STUART FARM BLOCK (on 22/OCTOBER/1984) after its MANAGER left to live in BRAZIL, briefly. The BLOCK covered about 2026ha (5000ac).

099: States that it was combined with the LAKE BLOCK which ran from above the UPUKERORA RIVER to PATIENCE BAY, back along SH94 to behind MATAI ST. including the RODEO GROUNDS and DOMAIN.

109: The latter area was subdivided from the STUART BLOCK and donated to the township for recreational purposes in the late 1970s.

119: Only one FARMER was SETTLED on the STUART BLOCK – KEITH THOMPSON – in 1984. Its proximity to the town and the demand for land meant it was not used for FARM SETTLEMENT but for much smaller 70-acre lifestyle units.

131: Goes on to say that shortly after he arrived at STUART the lifestyle blocks on CHARLES NAIRN and WILLIAM STEPHEN ROADS were finished and that the later NGAI TAHU ownership of land around the lake foreshore further changed the development process.

133: The TE ANAU GOLF COURSE, he says, had also once been part of the STUART BLOCK but was created in the mid-1950s.

154: Recalls that when he began at STUART, there were two HEAD SHEPHERDS in place. One, he says, ran the LAKE BLOCK. The other was in the area known as STUART FARM by SH95. Mentions that it was in a “bit of a mess” saying the STOCK were not in good condition and the pasture management was poor.

168: Says he’d just got the place in order when the MANAGER at LYNMORE STUD retired and he was offered to move there. However, he says he was warned that he would be going on his own this time if he accepted the offer, so he stayed put.

172: Replies that on their third WEDDING ANNIVERSARY, 11/APRIL/1969, their SON, WILLIAM, arrived. There were no other CHILDREN, he says, adding that WILLIAM is now MARRIED and living in CANADA.

180: Referring back to his job on STUART, he says that to start with he had to induce motivation in his workers to increase productivity. There were about 14,000 EWES he says but adds that the BLOCK has lost a lot of land in the ensuing years. [The land, particularly around the GOLF COURSE BLOCK and running past LAKE TE ANAU north of the RODEO GROUNDS was returned to NGAI TAHU in 1998 under the TREATY OF WAITANGI SETTLEMENT ACT]

186: The FARM, he says, is half the size it was when he arrived in 1986, leaving him 940ha on which he runs about 3500 DEER, 1000 SHEEP and 240 CATTLE. Affirms that it is still CROWN land under the SOE (state-owned enterprise) LANDCORP.

196: Mentions that it still operates under a similar structure as L&S in that he has to answer to an OPERATIONS MANAGER once every few months.

208: Of the entire L&S project in the BASIN, he estimates more than 100 FARMS were created between 1953 and 1987. When previously there were a few SHEPHERDS and RUNHOLDERS, he muses, the development has radically changed the landscape.

220: Referring to incidents in the later years of the SCHEME involving CONVICTED FRAUDSTERS, he comments that some “light-fingered” people got greedy.

Person recorded: Phil Denny

230: Explains that some L&S employees on some of the development BLOCKS got caught selling not only their own STOCK but also government-owned SHEEP and CATTLE as well. “It was just downright theft.”

237: Says that it was common for SHEPHERDS to run a couple of their own BOBBY CALVES on the government land (before it was sold to SETTLERS) and then sell them at CHRISTMAS to make a few extra bob; that this was generally overlooked.

239: The problem was that in one case, the MANAGER tried to cheat the government out of quite a few STOCK by saying he had lost forty COWS to TUTU (a toxin-forming native grass). But it was later revealed that he had not lost any – they had been shipped out on a TRUCK – with the proceeds pocketed privately.

268: Replies that L&S wages were poor adding that sometimes he wondered how a SHEPHERD managed to keep a young family going. But the other negative factor in maintaining staff was the isolation of the area.

271: Lists the facilities in the town in the 1960s: a RUGBY FOOTBALL CLUB, and a few years later, a SOCIAL CLUB (the TE ANAU CLUB) was formed.

278: Comments that L&S did a lot for the community in setting up CLUBS etc. “In fact a lot of stuff would not have been done if it hadn’t been for LANDS & SURVEY.”

283: Recalls that in 1968 the POST OFFICE was situated on the corner (of LAKEFRONT DRIVE and MILFORD ROAD). Adds that MARG worked for the TELEPHONE EXCHANGE which operated as part of the PO.

290: Goes on to say that the L&S office had been on the outskirts of the town near the site of the FIORDLAND HOTEL on LUXMORE DRIVE which had not been formed – the approach to the town centre was still by the original route which skirted the lakefront.

299: Talks about RADFORDS STORE on the corner of LAKEFRONT DRIVE and MARAROA ST. Also mentions that the new TE ANAU HOTEL had been built to replace the building destroyed by fire in OCTOBER 1965.

300: Mentions that at the store, the vehicle parking area was on sloping ground and “a lot of cars ended up in the lake (laughs) because people would get out and they wouldn’t have put their handbrakes on”.

311: When the HYDRO VILLAGE at MANAPOURI was built in 1968, he says, it meant the provision of a doctor (GP) in the area, although anything that required more serious care, still meant a trip to LUMSDEN. [The HYDRO VILLAGE was temporary government housing provided for workers and their families at the MANAPOURI HYDRO SCHEME PROJECT at DOUBTFUL SOUND. The SCHEME began in the late 1960s and continued into the mid-1970s. About 300 people lived in the HYDRO VILLAGE which was situated at SUPPLY BAY. It also included a HIGH SCHOOL, COMMUNITY HALL and GROCERY STORE. When the project was completed, the entire village was dismantled and parts were sold off. Many of the houses and buildings were shifted to TE ANAU and MANAPOURI – some of them are still standing in 2006.]

316: Mentions that in the case of medical emergency, there was an AMBULANCE available at the HYDRO VILLAGE, although by the 1970s the TE ANAU community raised funds for its own AMBULANCE.

335: States that in the late 1960s when the population of TE ANAU was in the hundreds “if you walked down the street, there was a fair chance you’d know most of them”.

340: Adds that it seemed that some people who had already been living in the area for several years disliked LANDS & SURVEY’S presence in the BASIN so “there was a stigma there”, which he adds has long since dissipated.

355: Affirms that tourism has created even greater change in the area. “Today there are so many people tied up in the tourism industry that I wouldn’t have a clue.” Adds that it is the same now in FARMING in that there are many new faces arriving in the BASIN.

366: The L&S FARM DEVELOPMENT SCHEME, he says, was brought to a close at about the time of the restructure of several major government departments in 1987. L&S, the FOREST SERVICE and the DEPARTMENT of INTERNAL AFFAIRS were all combined to form the DEPARTMENT of CONSERVATION (DOC).

371: Continues that this left the FARMING and PROPERTY sectors – the latter being an agency which handled the sell-off of government buildings such as the old POST OFFICES.

376: At the same time, he says, FARMING hit a downturn and the debt-servicing was becoming prohibitive for many in the industry. Briefly comments that what was termed a “one-man unit” was a joke since FARMERS’ WIVES were like unpaid workers. “There’s a lot of things on a FARM that you physically can’t do on your own.”

383: Mentions that there have been suggestions in some circles that the FARM DEVELOPMENT SCHEME should be re-started, but expresses doubts about the advocacy of such a move. “Some of these people paid $750,000 for their FARMS...are now selling them for $3M…they’ve done very nicely thank you.”

392: If the SCHEME had not taken place, he muses that the land would probably still have been divided up (by the runholders) although probably into larger sections.

Interview closes

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Recording was resumed so that the participant could provide names and details of some of the L&S staff who worked in the TE ANAU BASIN.

005: Starts this section by saying that the head office was in INVERCARGILL and that FIELD OFFICERS led the TE ANAU BASIN PROJECT. Its DISTRICT FIELD OFFICER, he says, was JOE HARTY, who left for a job in WESTPORT before returning to INVERCARGILL as COMMISSIONER of CROWN LANDS. Following the incidents of fraud occurring in TE ANAU (1983), he says, HARTY was relocated to NAPIER.

022: Mentions FIELD OFFICER, BOB YATES, who still lives in TE ANAU. Another FIELD OFFICER he names was GORDON WILSON.

034: CHIEF SURVEYOR, he adds, was BOB DALGLISH while another SURVEYOR was JACK CUNNINGHAM. Still another was JEREMY WOODALL who he describes as “a character”. The last SURVEYOR on the project, he says, was BRUCE MORRISON.

045: Another DISTRICT FIELD OFFICER he names was OWEN BUCKINGHAM who later bought his FARM by the WHITESTONE (RIVER) from RODNEY KEAST.

053: Explains that KEAST was given the FARM by L&S because he had previously run a few DAIRY COWS around TE ANAU “just ad lib”. Thinks that KEAST may have had some kind of lease to run the COWS around the town, which pre-1960s had no milk delivery service. But as the town grew, the authorities offered him the WHITESTONE property as a replacement.

067: Relates a tale about one of the workers at LONG VALLEY, JOE TALBOT who left to work for DAVE COCKBURN at MT PROSPECT (GLEN ECHO) but came back looking for his old job. Describes JOE as a “bit of a remittance man” who had been educated at CHRIST’S COLLEGE (a private boarding school in CHRISTCHURCH). Adds that JOE was a top blade SHEARER in his day. Also mentions that he was the only person to actually die on the property (when he was about 63 years old). He later added that TALBOT ROAD off KAKAPO ROAD, was named after JOE as the road was under construction when he died.

132: Adding to the community facilities, he says a YACHT CLUB was built after he arrived in the area. Says he became a CLUB member and sailed his own DINGHY as well as crewed on other people’s teams. He was appointed CLUB COMMODORE in 1984 and 1985.

145: Says he is also a member of the LIONS CLUB (started in 1964) and was elected as PRESIDENT in 1980/81.

161: As an aside, mentions the first permanent VETERINARY DOCTOR in TE ANAU was RUSSELL BROWN. The VET CLINIC on MILFORD ROAD was built by the NORTHERN SOUTHLAND VETERINARY SERVICES whose headquarters were in RIVERSDALE. Further explains that JAYE BROWN (RUSSELL’S wife) and MARG started the WOMEN’S CLUB in TE ANAU.

176: Of his future plans, says he will probably retire in the TE ANAU area. Expresses great fondness for the place adding that he has tramped many of the main walking tracks (MILFORD, ROUTEBURN, KEPLER) and for years has been involved in helping with the KEPLER CHALLENGE (an annual running event).

202: Discussion closes

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A second interview took place at the participant’s home on STUART FARM, TE ANAU on 3 FEBRUARY 2006.

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221: Responding to question on his initial involvement in DEER FARMING, he says LANDS & SURVEY got into the industry in the early 1980s, at first on the WEST COAST and in OTAGO at HINDON and at ORAKANUI near SEACLIFF.

232: Goes on to say that half of the first live capture WAPITI brought out of the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK went to the L&S trial unit at INVERMAY and the other half went to EVAN MEREDITH’S DEER PARK FARM which bordered his boundary on the STUART FARM BLOCK.

243: It was in 1986, he says, that L&S decided to set up a DEER FARM in the TE ANAU BASIN and elected the STUART FARM, under his management, to be the first. “I knew nothing about DEER FARMING…it was quite a big learning curve.”

249: Putting up the high DEER FENCES and designing a purpose-built shed were just some of the lessons he had to undertake. “I built what I thought was going to be the perfect shed, but it’s not perfect either…I don’t think anybody ever will (laughs).”

259: Explains that DEER FARMING has different requirements from CATTLE or SHEEP because the animals are so fast and are able to leap great heights. There are even some, he says, that will jump the 6ft 6in DEER FENCES.

261: Since he first started FARMING this type of animal he has noticed quite a change in the behaviour of the DEER, particularly those that are bred on the FARM compared with WILD DEER.

262: “We used to wear cricket pads to stop the kicking...and hard hats... (laughs).”

270: Recalls it was quite a challenge for him to first take on DEER FARMING especially as different methods were required. A mob of SHEEP or CATTLE could be rounded up with working dogs but with DEER, he says, he used FARM BIKES.

289: As for FEEDING requirements, he says that because DEER are not ruminants they don’t gorge on grasses like a COW or a SHEEP. “They are selective…they like a little bit of this and a little bit of that.”

295: Comments that the original WILD DEER were less fussy than the FARMED ones of today that have been bred on better quality pasture. Says some of the younger DEER “actually sulk” if they get put into older pasture.

301: Considers DEER are an interesting animal but adds that when dealing with large numbers it’s similar to working with any mob of animals.

303: By contradiction, he says there is a lot of work involved in DEER FARMING…qualifying this by admitting that his is a STUD FARM so requires more demands.

305: Expands on this saying that in 1991, L&S decided to create a STUD which it called RED DEER ELITE using screened animals from the WEST COAST (no TB). Adds that they started out with 180 DEER representing the top 10%.

316: Replies that there are now 500 of the same BREED. Of those first 180, he says, they were all single-SIRE mated to keep tabs on which DAM was inseminated with which SIRE.

323: Each FAWN, he says, had to be tagged, have its birth date recorded and then he would try to tally it up with its mother. Some, he explains proved difficult because the DAM’S natural instinct (in the wild) would be to put on an act and lead you away from its offspring.

329: Calculates he and his workers probably got it about 90% right. Ten percent, he says, was guesswork. “I used to go into the PADDOCKS at night with the binoculars and spend hours watching them.”

343: It has become a lot easier now, he says, with DNA matching.

349: Replies that LANDS & SURVEY (later LANDCORP) was not the first to start DEER FARMING in the BASIN. One or two individual FARMERS, he says, had set up small DEER UNITS including his neighbour, FINLAY SUTHERLAND who ran DEER on a 70-acre BLOCK.

357: On a tangent, he explains that EVAN MEREDITH’S nearby DEER PARK FARM contained some of the CROWN WAPITI HERD [WAPITI or ELK were first introduced in 1905 from the UNITED STATES. About 18 of the animals, including some from PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT’S own herd, were transported to the shores of the PARK. The main aim was for the animals to breed and provide a new source of game for HUNT SPORTSMEN, in the same way that DEER were introduced only a few years before. The WAPITI, like the DEER, prospered for years in the PARK even after culling was introduced by the government in the 1950s when farmers became increasingly concerned about the proliferation of wild DEER grazing their pastures. Legislation was passed declaring the need to eradicate all introduced animals in the FIORDLAND NATIONAL PARK (and others), including WAPITI which appeared only to have bred within a specific area of the PARK. The success of helicopter-assisted DEER culling in FIORDLAND from the late 1960s and into the 1980s greatly reduced the numbers of both DEER and WAPITI in the PARK. The CROWN HERD of WAPITI was thought to be a pure breed rather than crossed with RED DEER and in the 1980s a small number of them were brought out by helicopter in an effort to protect the species.]

361: Mentions that for about a year, he kept the CROWN HERD on STUART FARM until it was agreed to shift them to the FREESTONE FARM where they continue to be bred.

366: Says the WAPITI on FREESTONE are monitored by the same method as his RED DEER ELITE STUD.

370: States that at the end of the day, the big money in DEER will always be for its meat – VENISON.

388: The traditional markets for VENISON, he says, are GERMANY and the SCANDINAVIAN countries although the latter, he thinks, are self-sufficient in producing their own.

399: Describes the US market as a difficult one to get into because of its demands for year-round continuity of supply.

406: Replies that while the industry has proved profitable, in recent years there has been a downturn. Adds that LANDCORP is partly to blame by creating a lot of new large DEER FARMS, such as MT HAMILTON, HAYCOCKS, and EYRE CREEK and MARAROA. In addition, NZ DEER FARMS have also been producing on a huge scale, thereby creating a glut in the market.

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010: States that DEER FARMING was first begun in the 1970s. In 1986, he continues, when he bought his first DEER from a FARMER in RIVERTON, he paid $1350 for 78 animals. The year before, he says, they’d have been worth more than $2000, and the year before that they were paying up to $3500 straight off the helicopters

028: As an example of how much the VENISON industry had crashed, he says in 1987 he bought another herd and paid only $850. And the following year, he says, the price was whatever you could get from the MEATWORKS.

056: Considers there is a definite future for the DEER INDUSTRY and suggests that marketing should target the health-conscious and sports people because the meat contains large quantities of iron but has no fat.

090: Describes DEER as intelligent animals and something of a challenge to FARM. With the breeding programme, he says, any ill-tempered ones are trucked off to the MEATWORKS. “The last thing you want is people getting injured…you’ve got to work with them…be amongst them otherwise they just stand there and look at you.”

115: Differentiating the species, he says WAPITI are of a different temperament than RED DEER while FALLOW DEER are “very highly strung”.

126: Referring back to the WAPITI and suggestions that the CROWN HERD might one day be allowed to roam wild in the PARK again, he argues that it looks unlikely as long as the species is categorised as a “noxious animal”.

133: Adds that he thinks WAPITI do not damage the BUSH unlike possums which are the real culprits in the destruction of native forest.

137: Recalls that when he used to go DEERSTALKING in the 60s and 70s, it was possible to actually move through the BUSH whereas now, due to the reduced numbers of DEER, it’s more difficult because of the regenerated forest.

142: Contends that throughout the world, animals have been introduced from other countries and eventually become part of the flora and fauna.

160: Referring back to the FARM SETTLERS in the BASIN and the criteria they were required to fulfil, particularly that the wives also had to provide evidence of having previous experience of living on a FARM, he says some of the women did work on the property while others carried on with their own careers.

199: Agrees that several of the SETTLER wives were not particularly enamoured by the prospect of living in the BASIN. MARG, he says, was of the same opinion: “she thought I’d dropped her off at the end of the Earth”.

203: Explains that it was because there were few, if any, facilities in the town which was particularly hard on the wives and mothers.

213: Recalls that although the main highway was sealed, the road to the LONG VALLEY BLOCK was in poor condition. Adds that although there was a telephone system and electricity, they did not have television. “We read books.”

247: Yet he is unable to readily recall anyone who left the area because of not coping with the relative isolation. Saying that, he remembers that a lot of the SETTLERS did not stay on the FARMS for long: “They made a few bob out of the FARM then got out.”

261: On the question of whether some things could have been done differently by L&S regarding the size of the SETTLER FARMS, he reminds the interviewer that the first FARMS created on GILLESPIE ROAD (near THE KEY) and on SH94 were quite small at about 300-400 acres.

267: Recalls that one FARM on the main road was taken out altogether and divvied up among its neighbours. The reason, he explains, was because the SETTLERS were unable to service their debt as FARMING took a downturn.

271: Considers that the industry has changed dramatically. Illustrates this with the example of a typical FARMER in the late 1950s who may have stocked up to 900 EWES. Says the man would have made a good living: he would have been able to afford a car, boarding school for the children and even employ a single worker.

278: Goes on with the example of a FARMER who stocked 1200 EWES being extremely wealthy and able to enjoy a similar lifestyle with the possible advantage of employing a married couple on the FARM.

280: Ten years later (late 1960s) the first example would not have been able to make a living any longer unless he could increase the acreage on his property by buying up his neighbour’s land.

298: Nowadays, he says, although FARMING is a worthwhile industry for a young person to get into, it would be a “pie in the sky” dream due to the price of rural properties.

302: Returning to the subject of establishing the RED DEER ELITE STUD at STUART FARM, he explains further the background to that. The aim was for him to supply RED DEER STAGS to other LANDCORP properties, including those in the NORTH ISLAND.

310: When he started in the 1980s, he says, STUART FARM was producing STAGS that weighed an average 130kg (live weight). Now, he says, they can be up to 170kg each.

356: Interview ends.

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