Person recorded: Robert John (Bob) Yates

Date of Interview: 4 March 2004

Interviewer and abstractor: Morag Forrester

Tape counter: Sony TCM 393

Tape 1 Side A starts

003: Born 1928 in CHRISTCHURCH as one of eight children. Says it was during the DEPRESSION. Despite this his FATHER managed to keep working, as a leather machinist.

Following the interview, he explained his ancestors originated from SUSSEX, ENGLAND on the YATES side, and NORTHERN IRELAND on the CROTHERS side. His wife, DOROTHY’S, family emigrated from NORWAY in the 1800s.

017: Explains his FATHER died (in 1937) when he was nine and he was sent off to live with relatives who ran a DAIRY FARM in the KAIKOURA area, creating his “lifelong love” for the land.

023: Mentions he ran fourth eldest child of his PARENTS’ children – they had four BOYS, four GIRLS and already some of the older ones had left home to work by the time he was sent away.

033: Says times were tough, they had nothing, though he enjoyed family life.

039: Recalls attending WOOLSTON SCHOOL first, followed by a short time spent at KUMARA on the WEST COAST with his MOTHER and STEPFATHER (in 1939). But it wasn’t a happy time, he says, since as a young boy, he believed no-one could replace his FATHER.

053: Admits that his STEPFATHER must have been a saint to take on a widow with so many children. Adds they had ONE child, a DAUGHTER, who died young.

057: Explains his STEPFATHER had been a MINER but contracted a disease as a result of his job which put him on a pension for the rest of his life. Describes him as a “prodigious boozer” and his illness didn’t seem to have much effect on that.

071: Says while at his AUNT and UNCLE’S FARM on the east coast, he went to KAIKOURA SCHOOL from which he went on to HIGH SCHOOL in the town.

075: Recalls he was fourteen when he left school, wanting to get out and work on the land.

079: Remembers his first job was with a DAIRY FARMER in HALSWELL, milking cows. Then he moved on to a SHEEP FARM at LITTLE RIVER: “To me that was the life (laughs).”

085: At the age of seventeen, he continues, he joined the NZRAF, followed by a spell in the NZ army but there was no action, so he came out when he was eighteen and six months.

097: Mentions he was based at BATTERY POINT, LYTTELTON, where he met his WIFE, DOROTHY, whose family had a small FARM below the barracks.

106: Explains her family had access past the barracks to reach the beach, and he used to see her riding horses up and down. “We had mutual interests, fell in love and that’s where it started.”

111: Says they married and got a job as a married couple on a FARM at WAIAU in CANTERBURY. It was a SHEEP FARM of 6,000 acres. He had his own dogs.

116: “And then I started to get ambitious, I thought, oh, I want a FARM of my own.” Explains they had quite a few shifts from job to job, each time trying to get the next rung up the ladder towards achieving his ambition. Mentions staying at MACRAE’S in OTAGO before it was turned over to mining.

127: Recalls hearing about a new government scheme for which FARM MANAGERS were required.

132: Tape stopped to re-position mic.

135: Referring back to his first job, says his wage for milking cows was one pound/week with board and lodging included. The next job saw a raise to 2pounds 5d. Then mustering in the HIGH COUNTRY, the wages were 2pounds/day.

142: Mentions that when he took up the job as FARM MANAGER for LANDS and SURVEY in TE ANAU, the remuneration was 19pounds/week. “To me that was an astronomical figure.”

147: Recalls he and his family came to TE ANAU in MAY 1960. He remembers being interviewed for the job by a board of about eight in INVERCARGILL.

156: Replies that he and DOROTHY had four CHILDREN by then. They were all used to moving. He was looking forward to a MANAGER’S job. But admits that when he arrived, “the sheer scale of it (development), I’d never seen anything like it.”

165: Remembers knowing very little about the job when the family first arrived. Recalls it was autumn, fairly late at night, with the glare of the setting sun nearly blinding him as he drove into the BASIN.

174: Talks about how the house they’d been allocated wasn’t finished, and JACK HOCKEY, the boss, told them they would have to stay at a BOARDING HOUSE for a fortnight till it was ready. They stayed at MRS BAKER’S BOARDING HOUSE on the lakefront.

184: Explains the job was to set up a new FARM on a hunk of developed and partly developed land with one house, no power, no phone. He was to organise the necessities of a working FARM, such as hand tools, dog kennels.

193: Says there were two other senior MANAGERS already there, one was JOHN POLLARD at TE ANAU BLOCK, the other GEORGE SMITH at LYNWOOD BLOCK.

202: Mentions he was expected to conduct the day-to-day running of a particular block, KAKAPO. Says it stretched from where OWEN BUCKINGHAM farms today, to the SNOWDON slip and up the UPUKERORA VALLEY.

207: Describes the KAKAPO ROAD as being like a riverbed, it had been only roughly formed. Says there was one house at the bottom of the road, then theirs and that was all. The kids walked to the main road to be met by the school bus.

213: Admits there were lots of problems. The area was “pretty gutless”, he says, and there were a lot of stock health problems.

219: Explains he was expected to supervise contractors who were doing the cultivation and grassing. First, he says, they’d take an area, plough it, sow swedes for winter feed, and then hopefully grass it the following year.

223: Adds supervision of the fencers who were subdividing the blocks into an average settlement lot of 30 paddocks totalling about 600 acres. Also supervision of the water supply and other necessities was required. “You were expected to make the decisions.”

231: Mentions the FIELD STAFF drew up the budgets, and supervised the MANAGERS.

235: Responding to question, says the development project at KAKAPO has never been totally completed because there are still some sections that were earmarked but never SETTLED. But, says there might have been up to eight new FARMS created on it.

239: Recalls that in 1962, he and the FAMILY left the BASIN after he was offered a job in CANTERBURY, managing a NASELLA TUSSOCK block. He was there for about five years before returning to TE ANAU and another promotion, this time as a FIELD OFFICER.

246: Corrects comment saying it was the TAKITIMU BLOCK that was the first of these L&S DEVELOPMENTS to be SETTLED, and that was in 1962.

254: Describes the changes over the five years he’d been away as “like chalk and cheese”. Remembers his first impressions of coming over the hill into TE ANAU and seeing the lake and that there were no trees, just acres of SCRUB, big FERNY-covered flats.

261: In the town, he remembers, there was only the one BOARDING HOUSE, with a GARAGE and one petrol pump, a restaurant, barber’s shop and a bus stop and the old hall. “It was like a Midwestern (US) town. You’d expect to see, coming out, gunfighters (laughs).” Adds that when he came back, “I couldn’t believe my eyes…the changes that had been taking place.”

280: Recalls that on the TAKITIMU BLOCK, the first SETTLER had worked with him as a SHEPHERD. He’d been a KOREAN WAR VETERAN.

282: For background, he explains that after WWII the government launched a SOLDIER SETTLER SCHEME to rehabilitate servicemen coming home. Says they were entitled to first choice of these new FARM BLOCKS as long as they had all the necessary paperwork.

286: Refers to the SHEPHERD, named HASTIE, getting a 600-acre BLOCK. As did someone called TURNBULL.

289: Adds that all the original SETTLERS did well. They got good land and good prices, and had a good landlord (L&S) (laughs). “I was talking to one of the settlers the other day..he’s 79..and he was just saying, you know, you’d never get anybody like that again.”

295: Explains why, believing that the general approach was that if a FARMER got into trouble, it was understood. Adds that at that time, several cabinet ministers were FARMERS themselves, who had a lot of clout with FEDERATED FARMERS. Also says that everybody wanted the development scheme to work. So, if anyone got into trouble and it could be traced back to L&S, then it was fixed for them.

301: Gives an example of one FARMER who had insufficient land “but he was a poor operator”, and he was provided with more land on easy terms and made what he had strong enough so that he could hang in there till he retired only a while ago. “You’d never get a landlord like that again.”

306: Outlines another example of a SETTLEMENT in 1971 when there was a bad drought that year. So, the SETTLER won his BALLOT, arrived on the BLOCK on handover day when he was presented with the stock, which were immediately shifted to TOKANUI for grazing for three months, till the drought was over. So, in that instance, he and similar BALLOT winners did nothing for their first three months.

316: Recalls the camaraderie of working for L&S when everyone knew everyone else and they had some great times. Adds there were up to 160 staff. They were SHEPHERDS, MANAGERS, FENCERS, CULTIVATION CONTRACTORS etc.

326: Admits that while MANAGERS were paid well, FARM STAFF were not and it was hard to attract good men. Says L&S didn’t want to court any public criticism by paying more than the going rate paid by the FARMING sector.

337: Recalls going on a recruitment drive on the east coast and only coming back with one new worker, PHIL DENNY, who’s still here.

346: Discussing the soil types, says the land varied. On the ridges is better than on the flats which are stony and drought prone. With that in mind, explains you had to balance up the FARM BLOCK area, making them bigger or smaller, depending on the topography.

352: Mentions that on the high ridge BLOCKS, a lot was oversown – showering seed and super-phosphate from the air. Expands on this, saying the RAMPARTS area was once all covered in FERN. But clovers and coxfoot became established, then the stock were put to graze. “They virtually grind the FERN to powder and eventually it blows away.”

359: Considers the biggest thing for the development programme was SUPER (PHOSPHATE) and NO 8 WIRE; the former because it developed the potential of the land, while with the latter fences could be put up keeping stock in areas to work down the overgrowth.

369: Talks about the BULLRING along MILFORD ROAD where the DEPT. OF AGRICULTURE carried out early trials. Says there are still traces of where plots were sown with SUPER. These trials proved successful enough for them to believe the land in the BASIN would grow GRASS.

376: Reiterates the scale of the L&S scheme was huge. And admits that some mistakes were made, such as requiring LIME along with the SUPER, stock health problems. But generally, he believes, it was a success.

387: Agrees that an important part of the job of FIELD OFFICER was to have experience and an understanding of farming practice.

390: Says he admires the people who thought up the L&S scheme because “it takes a lot of guts” to take on such a large area and turn it into viable FARMLAND.

It should be explained that the land had been used from about 1860 onwards for large sheep runs by the first European settlers who had bought depasturing stock leases from the government. So, for example, the original LYNWOOD BLOCK had been under private leasehold and partial freehold before being bought back by the government.

396: Refers again to JACK HOCKEY, the first FIELD OFFICER. Describes him as a brilliant organiser. Believes the town should have a street named after him as a memorial to the good work he did. He worked on the scheme for about eight years before going on to RURAL AVIATION.

405: Talking again about his family, praises his WIFE, DOROTHY. “She’s been marvellous…just wherever I’ve moved, she’s been wholeheartedly behind me. Marvellous.”

416: Says he was FIELD OFFICER for about 15 years both in TE ANAU and CANTERBURY.

420: Then, his greatest ambition materialised, when at the age of 55, he and DOROTHY were BALLOTED their own FARM BLOCK.

Tape 1 Side A ends

Tape 1 Side B starts

002: Opens with discussion on what criteria were required to apply for a BALLOT. “And if you’re lucky, your marble is drawn out.”

015: Agrees it was a lottery system and that he was too nervous about the outcome to actually attend the draw.

020: Says he was “over the moon” when (in 1984) they won the BALLOT. “To get my own bit of land…priceless.” It was on the MARAROA ROAD, opposite MARAROA STATION, the third property on the right.

029: States it was a good FARM, with a balance of hill country and flat totalling 728 acres. As with the way the BALLOTS worked, it was already stocked so that it was an up-and-running concern.

039: Explains that in financial terms, these BLOCKS could be taken on with a right of freeholding on deferred payment, over thirty-five years (like a mortgage). And for the seasonal financing (ie the day to day running) a stock firm would be persuaded to cover that till the first wool cheque came in.

055: Declares that in NEW ZEALAND: “We’ll never see the like of it again…..I think I was the last one to get one.”

063: Admits that after fourteen years of telling others what to do, he was out of touch. Expands on this saying he used to switch off and go home at 4.30, but as a FARMER you can’t do that. Also he would try to save all the lambs he could instead of heeding his own advice to let them go.

084: Referring back to putting stock on the BLOCKS, says each one had a carrying capacity. Some land would be good and could carry more stock while other parts might not have been so their subdivision would be larger in acreage.

102: Details some of the SETTLEMENTS, such as LYNWOOD, BOUNDARY, PRINCHESTER, WHITESTONE, KAKAPO, RAMPARTS, TE ANAU (SINCLAIR ROAD). Later divisions included SNOWDON (part of TE ANAU), DALE.

126: Talks about wintering CATTLE in the UPUKERORA part of the KAKAPO. Says he and JOHNNY POLLARD would muster the stock out in SPRING and that L&S was strict on accountability so every head had to be counted. But, he laughs, JOHNNY wasn’t bothered and would declare his stock count to be whatever was leftover.

136: Says an annual audit was carried out; every hoof through a gate was counted and recorded, and all the chattels (tools, trucks, fencing wire).

146: In response to question, says that prior to aerial topdressing of SUPER PHOSPHATE, spreaders were used, but only on the flat country, so they depended on the aerial method to develop the ridges.

153: The contractors, he says, included a firm called FARMERS AERIAL, (IN/GILL) and RURAL AVIATION (D/DIN). The latter he says sometimes had eight or ten planes working at one time. For example, at the KAKAPO SWAMP, there was maybe one hundred tonnes of SUPER sown in one day by three aircraft.

166: Explains that once the grass was established, all it required was a dusting of SUPER. Although he adds that on the flatter contours, bulk spreaders were used.

175: States the basic grass seed used was COCKSFEET CLOVER, WHITE CLOVER, RED CLOVER, TIMOTHY.

187: Of the contractors that were used, he says BERNIE CHANEY and his mate, TREVOR CARLTON, were post-splitting at the DALE. DOUG ALLEN and JIMMY MORGAN were cutting posts on the MILFORD ROAD.

193: Mentions that in those days all the posts were acquired from local sources which they wouldn’t be allowed to do now. And, he says, a lot of the ideas that were used had come from earlier developments created in the NORTH ISLAND.

197: Describes one style of fence which had a post every three metres apart, with wooden batons, two barbed wires (which weren’t necessary) and six plain wires. Says there’s still remnants of it around, although most of the old posts that were cut locally rotted away at ground level. Fencing changed with the advent of tanalised pine which is reputedly long-lasting.

209: Names some of the SHEPHERDS, DOUG HASTIE (first settler at TAKITIMU), ANDY BENNINGTON, HUGH ELDER, JACK BOURSE. Then there was AB SPAIN (fencer), KINGHE KAYHA, who, he laughs, wasn’t too keen on the idea of an old hearse being used as a runaround car.

223: Says the MATHESON BROS built a lot of the houses which were based on a general plan of a three-bedroomed house on 1200 sq ft, and most people who were allocated BLOCKS usually altered this basic design.

230: Explains that in building the houses, they had to think about the overall costs for the SETTLER. That if his home had been a handsome villa, that would have increased his capital costs.

244: Referring again to the FARM stock, says the ROMNEY did better than other SHEEP and HEREFORD were the preferred CATTLE. Says they had to buy thousands of them when stocking up the BLOCKS. Each settler would take about 2,500 ewes and 600 hoggets.

251: Tape stopped due to coughing bout by interviewer

253: Says L&S came in for a lot of criticism for the quality of the stock, and he admits that they had to buy other people’s cast-offs to start up the BLOCKS.

258: Tape stopped again to shut outside door

260: Of the CATTLE, he repeats it was HEREFORDS and ANGUS that were the best breeds. Adds that some problems occurred, including peridontal disease which affected the SHEEP and was found to be caused by a lack of SELENIUM in the soil which was treatable.

271: Mentions other diseases included ‘woody tongue’ and ‘white muscle’, also caused by a SELENIUM deficiency.

282: Responding to question, says there were a small number of SETTLERS who didn’t do well, but he stresses that the vetting process was quite rigid in that the BALLOTTEE had to show evidence of having worked on FARMS.

298: Says he never knew of anyone who’d been given a BLOCK under the BALLOT system who proved to be so incapable that he was taken off the allocated FARM. But he does give an instance of someone who’d given misleading information about his cash assets, so once he was found out, he was taken off the FARM.

305: On the other hand, he says, there were quite a few guys who were hopeless. Says he knows of several who’ve muddled through, hung in there, did nothing and as land prices changed so they benefited. “See on BALLOT day, just by signing your name, immediately you made yourself worth money, capital gain.”

314: Back to the aerial TOPDRESSING, he again says it rapidly changed the quality of the land. But adds it required a continued effort each year otherwise there would be a ‘reversion’.

335: Talks about other changes created as an offshoot of the L&S scheme, such as the installation of telephones, tar-sealed roads, improved schooling and facilities for the town.

338: Recalls CLIVE SHELTON as being a country grocer whose shop was where the WESTPAC BANK is now. Says he was a regular customer and if he’d missed putting in an order, one would be made up on the basis of the previous order and it would be ready for pickup.

344: Confirms there was a DAIRY FARM in the town, where the RANCH PUB now is. RODNEY KEAST was the DAIRYMAN who’d been there for many years and was supplying townspeople with milk.

352: Says L&S booted KEAST off his land, but to do so they had to offer him land so they offered him to move out near the WHITESTONE BRIDGE. Says it was a bribe to shift him - his cows were walking round the streets and people’s gardens. He’d since sold the property to OWEN BUCKINGHAM.

360: Mentions the government’s experimental FARM, TAPUA. Says the objective was to show SETTLERS how much stress you could safely load on stock before they started dying. Says TAPUA’S deathrate was “staggering”. (This was mentioned to tell a funny story about RODNEY KEAST)

371: Says TAPUA was abandoned after a while and DON CROMB was settled there.

381: Believes the L&S scheme changed things for the better, despite what critics might say about not touching RED TUSSOCK. Says a lot of the land was just TUSSOCK which SHEEP won’t graze on.

391: Agrees that nowadays, unless you had a lot of personal wealth behind you, it would be impossible to set up as a FARMER. Even in 1984, he says, it had taken them years to save enough for a deposit of $38,000 to put on the BALLOTTED BLOCK. Laughs at the idea of nowadays trying to persuade a BANK to lend 80% of the money on a FARM without having any equity to support it.

398: Considers the L&S SCHEME was a great thing: “I drive around here sometimes and I think, you know, I’ve had a hand in some of this. I feel proud of it, absolutely….We’ll never see the like of it again.”

407: Comments that tourism has also helped develop the area, but in the early days when it was a “frontier town” L&S had a hand in building the SCHOOL swimming pool because he would charge the cost of the cement to one of the BLOCKS.

412: Similarly, the GOLF COURSE which he says was helped out by another FIELD OFFICER. LIONS PARK is another instance, although no-one knows about it.

417: Talks about some riotous parties at the L&S OFFICE situated on the MILFORD ROAD in town. “CHRISTMAS EVE, the contractors would drop in and the tops would come off the bottles of whisky.”

420: Agrees it was the town’s major employer at that time.

Tape 1 Side B ends

Tape 2 Side A starts

014: Responding to question, says a similar scheme would not be possible today because there are not the large tracts of land left. A lot of CROWN LAND, he continues, has been taken up by the DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION.

023: Considers that politically it would not get much backing, and the volatility of FARM PRICES doesn’t help either.

042: Discusses the concomitant impact of the MANAPOURI HYDRO SCHEME which also occurred through the 60s and 70s. The HYDRO VILLAGE housed the many workers involved in the scheme; it had houses, shops, even a school to which his own children were sent. It no longer exists and the entire site was removed.

071: States that the few private property owners who were already established before the L&S scheme had looked on as it developed, watching any techniques and taking them on board, such as the aerial spreading SUPER (PHOSPHATE).

081: Adds that the developed land is pleasant to look at, (compared with the way it was as scrub and swamp) especially up at the OBSERVATION POINT where you can get an overview of the country.

091: States that forty years ago, he would never have thought the area would look the way it does now. “Not in my wildest dreams.”

117: On the BALLOT SYSTEM, agrees a lot of people were left disappointed. Some had even put in eight or more times and their names were never drawn. Says again he was lucky, adding that he wished only that he’d been thirty years younger when he did get it.

125: Explains that he and DOROTHY were working non-stop at the age of fifty-five. And while they improved the FARM and the STOCK, he was also aware of needing to have a quality of life too. “We loved it, but we thought we’d scale down, which we did.”

133: Says that at the time they sold, they’d hit a time of bad PRICES, so they didn’t come away with a huge fortune, but enough to buy their present home.

141: Says he now grazes STOCK for absent owners – about forty ewes. He also trains SHEEPDOGS as a hobby.

145: Referring back to his family, says there are SIX CHILDREN, GRANDCHILDREN, and GREAT GRANDCHILDREN. Two DAUGHTERS live in TE ANAU, but the other CHILDREN are in CHRISTCHURCH, CROMWELL, INVERCARGILL and GORE.

158: On their first days in the BASIN, says everyone got on well. There was a strong community spirit. There were dances in the OLD HALL. They’d organised the first GYMKHANA and talks about the bucket at the gate.

187: On the town’s future, he believes nothing will stop urban development and they’ve still got room to move so they may move out to where he is. At the back of them, by the aerodrome, he says that may be settled, may even become a town.

203: Adds that he doesn’t like crowds, lots of people; he prefers space.

Interview closes

Tape 2 Side A stops