Sarah Black 'Sadie' Macdonald

Interviewer: Janice Templeton

Abstracter: Jean Hawkes

FIRST INTERVIEW: 30 October 2007

Track 1

00.00 Interview identification

00.52 Start of interview. Birth 1924 in LARKHALL, SCOTLAND. Parents – SAMUEL BLACK HILL, AGNES BROWNLIE MACKINTOSH (?) Father coal merchant, finally librarian. Mother housewife, dressmaker and tailoress. Two sisters AGNES WALLACE BREEN (?) and JESSIE DOBBIE GUY (?) , no brothers. CROMWELL, TEWANTIN in QUEENSLAND

02.18 Leaving SCOTLAND, 2nd birthday on boat ' THE PAKEHA' coming to NZ. Middle child.

02.51 Landed at AUCKLAND (unsure). Father thought there was a job but there was none. Move to DUNEDIN. Train journey AUCKLAND to WELLINGTON, father stood for 17 hours. Described. LYTTELTON. Mentioned

03.58 Settling in DUNEDIN ALBANY STREET, one room upstairs. Described Parents slept on newspaper on the floor.

04.45 Parents' families left in SCOTLAND. Lack of money

04.59 Father employed by PUBLIC WORKS in DUNEDIN making corners and bends on PORTOBELLO ROAD. Paid by the number of bends, reason for all the bends. WESTPORT COAL COMPANY delivering coal. Setting up business as coal merchant. Must have covered every Street in DUNEDIN Gave up when in his early sixties. Described

06.33 Father librarian at PREMIER LIBRARY, OCTAGON in DUNEDIN Both parents great readers.

06.54 Schooling. Described CAVERSHAM, GLEN ROAD, HIGH STREET SCHOOL, NORTH DUNEDIN INTERMEDIATE .. first day pupil, TECHNICAL COLLEGE Studied shorthand, typing, bookkeeping, 4 ½ years, didn't want to leave.

08.22 Employed by SHACKLOCK. Interview with Mr SINGLETON the Manager. He taught shorthand. Described Worked as Cost Accountant. Taught shorthand at night school. Shorthand used in church. Explained Mr STEAVLEY (?) minister of FIRST CHURCH Levels of Shorthand Qualifications – Junior, Senior, Intermediate Still able to do shorthand. Employed 1939-1945 Harry stationed in WELLINGTON

10.41 Effects of World War 2. Described Heard on radio. 18, 19 year old boys couldn't wait to get away. Harry enlisted with NAVY. Too small for seaman became a CODER in SIGNALS OFFICE CHAMBERLAIN not successful in GERMANY

12.09 Met Harry (future husband) at St JOHN'S DANCE. Father sent taxis to take her home when out in evening. Courting. Described DENTAL SCHOOL, NORTH EAST VALLEY. Mentioned

13.06 Attitude to war – ENGLAND and EMPIRE Part of Empire but so far away didn't effect a great deal. Rationing. Mentioned Parents' attitude towards family still in GLASGOW. Not spoken about. Contact maintained by correspondence. SCOTLAND bit like NEW ZEALAND far removed from events in ENGLAND. Bombing round NORTH SEA for shipping and oil. Mentioned

14.15 NEW ZEALAND involvement in war Harry on 'ACHILLES' in 1944 after GRAF SPEY action. Ship's duties. Described.

15.13 Acceptance of friends enlisting, especially in NAVY. Harry apprenticed to a plasterer.

15.53 Church involvement – FIRST CHURCH – bible class, choir. Professor GALWAY organist, also played organ in TOWN HALL.

16.40 Harry's departure from DUNEDIN. His family lived in DUNEDIN. Kept in contact – letter writing, occasional phone calls due to cost. Described She wrote something every day for 4 ½ years, only posted when envelope got too fat. Thirty-two letters all at once – he was teased. Letters not kept. Replies on aerograms, censored, no reference to whereabouts 'at sea' Action seen off the coast of SUMATRA. Bombing of ship by JAPANESE with loss 15 ROYAL MARINES. Painting of event. Described

19.44 Harry's occupation on ship – CODER. Described Important and confidential. On return to NAVY OFFICE worked 8 hours and off for 24. Lived in one room in WELLINGTON. Day-time activities during 24 hours off. Described. 20.35 Her own feelings regarding absence of Harry. Wrote to several of his friends, scattered over the world. ERITREA. Mentioned One on a raft in INDIAN OCEAN for fourteen days, died recently. 21.42 War efforts. RED CROSS – knitting seaboot socks, knitted thigh high stockings, parcels, Christmas cakes and fruit cake with no icing. Mother baked. Harry 21 while away – gift of Parker pen not received, never found.

22.56 Farewell Dances. Described Seldom home on leave 'ACHILLES' port-to-port cruise before departure. 'ACHILLES' in port and a week's leave, engagement taken for granted. Phone call “can we get married next week?” had ten or fourteen days leave. Mr SEALEY (?) Minister of FIRST CHURCH, his son on 'MANGONUI' (?) due in WELLINGTON - wedding arranged to coincide with return to Dunedin. 24.54 Train delay, cow in MIKIWAKA TUNNEL

25.09 Planning wedding arrangements. 1944 Wedding cake so fresh it crumbled. Wedding Dance – sailors to dance with, normally no men about Sisters bridesmaids. Mother superstitious Scottish lady – spider on frock, rain before midnight. RED CROSS decorated church. FIRST CHURCH, LAKE'S RESTAURANT (and ballroom) KARITANE.

30.20 Wedding night spent at Harry's sisters at CAVERSHAM Dr EDGAR'S crib at KARITANE Move to AUCKLAND – Harry joined 'GAMBIA' in INDIA – on return posted to Navy Office in WELLINGTON 'ACHILLES' taken over by INDIAN NAVY

31.31 Time in Auckland. Described STANLEY BAY

32.37 Transfer to WELLINGTON. Described Lived in one room overlooking seven backyards She worked at C W MARTIN'S, plumbers in WELLINGTON

33.06 Return to DUNEDIN

33.50 Queuing and rationing in WELLINGTON Food, Clothing, everything Mother making clothing from home items. First bought item from PENROSE'S at age 17 – a dirndl frock Got used to being without items.

35.57 Female friends went into WRENS – to shy herself Harry rejected initially, case reviewed and accepted. Selling Poppies in QUEEN STREET

37.23 End of war return to DUNEDIN One room in NORTH EAST VALLEY. BARBARA born 1946 when in their own home MAORI HILL Worked for SHACKLOCK'S on return to DUNEDIN JACK WESNEY, JIM STUCK from OTAUTAU in WELLINGTON. GORE. Mentioned Bricklayer and plasterer at OTAUTAU for a time, wife stayed in DUNEDIN for about two years. Wait for State house …. (?) McPHERSON using it while own place being built.

40.53 Home loan, 3% interest. Farm draws Cost of home in DUNEDIN. STATE ADVANCES. Mentioned Auction of property on hillside, bought the one they wanted for sixty-two pounds Building of home. Described JIM LINDSAY, CHARLIE McARTHUR

43.46 Attitude to eligible men who did not enlist. Expectations of duration of war.

44.30 Parents grew own vegetables

45.05 Air Raid exercises. Home Guard, Black outs. Threat of invasion. Travel rationed. Wardens. Movies Permits for each 50 miles. PICTON, HAMILTON, DUNEDIN, BALCLUTHA, STIRLING Mentioned

48.40 During war years played netball, tennis Felt remote from war. Details on radio. First casualty CLARK from DUNEDIN on 'ACHILLES' during 'GRAF SPEY' attack at MONTE VIDEO. First New Zealander killed.

50.45 Impact of war on Harry – unsettled Meaning of ANZAC Day – rekindles memories of what it was like in war years. Future generations, understanding important but does not sink in very well when living in a world at peace. Changes in actions of war. Atomic bomb at HIROSHIMA. Described. POLISH people and migrants from other countries.

53.54 Settling at OTAUTAU – BARBARA, NEIL Otautau MATERNITY HOSPITAL – SISTER EDWARDS. Experiences described.

SECOND INTERVIEW: 3 November 2007

Track 2

00.26 Home. Heating. Section next door. Described People employed by Harry – KEITH BROWN, PETER GUTSELL Harry – stroke 1962 – retired – business closed down Bricklayer for DAVE McKENZIE, BILL ANDERSON builders

03.14 NEIL born in Eton Street 1950. Moved into new house in 1957 OTAUTAU MATERNITY HOME – SISTER EDWARDS

04.22 PLUNKET – NANCY HOUSTON Plunket Nurse and in DUNEDIN when BARBARA born. Mrs IRWIN, Mrs CAMPBELL due to retire from committee. GWEN McPHERSON secretary for about two meetings. Sadie nominated to take over, there for 17 years. No Plunket Mothers' Club in OTAUTAU.

05.30 Secretary for KARITANE HOSPITAL Committee. Demise of KARITANE. Furore over the closing.

06.12 Standout experiences with PLUNKET Catering for RAM FAIRS at HOLT PARK. Described Debutante Balls. Described Fund Raising. Plunket met at back of Town Hall moved to Centennial Rooms. Never President of Plunket MICK LADDEN (?) Mentioned

10.14 No Kindergarten or Play Centre. Parent Teacher Association, Harry committee member, Sadie attended meetings at school once a month. No memory of Pet Shows

11.09 Children at old school in ALDERLY STREET, then to new school To Southland Girls' High School and Southland Boys' High School in a bus. CENTRAL SOUTHLAND COLLEGE had not been built Tried for secondary school in OTAUTAU, wanted an Agricultural College. ROY WALKER, BILL SMART. Mentioned

12.39 FLOOD 1984 – working at WALLACE COUNTY – slept on office floor with a very pregnant lady alongside. Saw rivers meet – APARIMA RIVER and OTAUTAU STREAM – effects Offered trip home in a grader. Described Began at WALLACE COUNTY in 1957, Miss SHAW retired. ROY WALKER asked Sadie to take over – on her terms, paid by the hour then full time – in all 28 years. Calculation of Rates. Pay scales. Described LIEMAN STREET, MALCOLM MILLER. Mentioned 20.09 Office Staff – IAN McCARTNEY, ….(?) FLUERY, STUART BARNETT, MICK PAULIN, KEN JOHNSON (?), JUNE BAXTER typist for ROY WALKER Present building on MAIN STREET, during addition of top floor worked from CROWN HOTEL

21.29 Amalgamation with SOUTHLAND DISTRICT COUNCIL WALLACE COUNTY maybe should have been centre for the area. Interviewer's grandfather had been chairman WILLIAM HOPCROFT. BOB McLELLAN PLUNKET meetings at night

22.42 Church life. Ministers – MR CONDY, Mr MUDIE, ROY McKENZIE. Treasurer for Envelope System. APW (Association of Presbyterian Women), PWMU (Presbyterian Women's Missionary Union). Mentioned

24.18 OTAUTAU vibrant place until loss of TRUSTEE BANK/SOUTHLAND SAVINGS BANK. BANK of NEW ZEALAND, NATIONAL BANK, POST OFFICE all closed. Had to go to WINTON or INVERCARGILL.

25.10 Stock Agents – WRIGHTSON, DALGETY and others.

25.39 Grocery Shops - SINGLE PROFIT, HARRINGTON'S, BILL BROWN. GEORGE McKAY manager SINGLE PROFIT – closed HARRINGTON'S to a food company. BILL BROWN'S recently closed – no one took over. SUPER VALUE. 26.34 Dairies – NORTH ROAD. OKAY MILK BAR closed.

26.48 Butcher – Now closed

26.53 Drapery – Menswear – none

27.15 People from NIGHTCAPS, OHAI shopping in OTAUTAU. When banks closed – travel to WINTON to bank and do shopping

27.24 Garage – CENTRAL GARAGE; WRIGHTSON'S closed, no petrol pumps. Petrol pumps at KERRAN (?) JACKSON'S GARAGE – BP pumps taken, replaced with another brand.

28.14 1948 moved to OTAUTAU, lived there almost 60 years. Came for a week. No sealed roads. Only piece of sealed road outside FAIRFAX HOTEL. Thought when reached INVERCARGILL you fell into the sea. Reaction after being in DUNEDIN. Described Stayed with MARY and JACK WESNEY, JIM STUCK (?) Time in State house until own place built. NAVY OFFICE. Mentioned Mother visited, not father.

31.01 Turning point, after first week, adjusted to conditions. Described. Lack of money to travel. Previous lifestyle changes.

32.14 Social life – circle of friends Relatives in SCOTLAND sent kid gloves for BARBARA. JEAN SMART told BILL that 'new' people in OTAUTAU must be rich, child has kid gloves.

33.28 Relatives in SCOTLAND – Harry met them during war. Sadie never went back. Grandmother wrote to Commodore H …..(?) Harry, New Zealand born and bred Contact maintained with SCOTLAND Family members' visits from and to SCOTLAND SCARPA FLOW, North of Scotland; QUEENSTOWN, KINGSTON Mentioned

36.22 Life after Harry's stroke at 41 on holiday in ALEXANDRA. Acceptance. Three months in DUNEDIN HOSPITAL. She wanted to leave work and told not to. He did cooking, notice over the range 'Remember to Salt Everything'. Allocated chores. Recovery. Not able to physically work. Home garden. Knelt on cushion to do things. Used left hand. No SOCIAL SECURITY for self-employed. Superannuation at 60. Didn't like caliper on leg, took it off and never used it again. Able to drive. Re-action of other people. He sang in church choir, never soloist, duets with EUNICE LINDSAY.

42.39 Children – BARBARA typist at WALLACE COUNTY, mother there as well. Met OWEN (husband) at Bible Class. Straight to farm at HEDDON BUSH when married 'between the hay and the wheat' Sadie thought meant married in the paddocks. Wedding at PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH, OTAUTAU, reception RSA. ARTHUR COLLIE said 'When Barbara marries Owen she marries Southland' Barbara's children – JEFFREY (?) Science teacher at Pukekohe High School; BRONWYN married JOHNNY McLEAN live at TOWER (?) PEAK farming; Bronwyn's children JAKE and ANNA MEGAN nurse overseas. Son NEIL friendly with JIM PHILLIPS. Neil's son BRADLEY in BNZ, Invercargill has son SAMUEL. Married LYNETTE REWCASTLE from INVERCARGILL, live in city. Part of PLUMBING WORLD, AQUATHERM. Apprenticed with ALLAN THOMPSON (?) in OTAUTAU. Own business in OTAUTAU. Second son JEROMEY with BETA FORD MOTORE ENGINEERS, partner MEGAN YOUNG and daughter JESSICA. Bradley's wife PHILLIPPA, teacher at ASCOT SCHOOL.

49.25 Barbara and Owen's farm at HEDDON BUSH sold to dairying company – moving to ALEXANDRA towards CLYDE in 2008. RAIL TRAIL. Mentioned

50.35 Communication with grandchildren. Described

51.05 JEFFREY – music, singer. In 'OLIVER' – Production Manager for Pukekohe High School productions. Own little theatre. Learned piano. Barbara's family interested in tennis. GLADFIELD. Mentioned NEIL and LYNETTE with Sports Car Club, TERETONGA. LYNETTE in office of SUPERVALUE in Yarrow Street. 53.39 Stories of Sadie's children. Described Involvement with Bible Class people. Walking to school. Sadie learned to drive about 1955 McKENZIE, KEITH BROWN. Mentioned

[CHANGE OF ABSTRACTER]

Abstracter: W. Brent Coats

DISC 2: TRACK 2

00:04 Interview identification

00:46 BUILDING HOUSE - WORKED at night after work - HARRY laid bricks - Self mixed cement - Described

01:09 House BRICK and ROUGHCAST with STUCCO finish – Method explained 02:11 Developed GARDEN – Children mowed next section - Fruit trees – Mentions

02:23 End of Track 2

THIRD INTERVIEW: 18 April 2008

DISC 3: TRACK 1

00:00 Interview introduction

00:44 Interviewee recalls mistake from last interview – “…certainly wasn’t 2 years”

00:55 Interviewer clarifies recollection – SADIE in DUNEDIN – HARRY settling in OTAUTAU - Mentions

01:10 MOVED to OTAUTAU – Self stayed with JACK and MARY WESNEY – Moved into state house 1948 – Moved into new home 1957 – Describes

01:50 3 ½ years between CHILDREN - Mentions

02:28 HOUSE being sold – Took Self 2-3 months to acknowledge LEAVING HOME – “Huge decision” to DOWNSIZE – Nothing suitable in OTAUTAU – DISCUSSION about “treasures” – Gave to grandchildren – Many POSSESSIONS to decide – Recalls

05:07 FURNITURE still in house while being sold – DIVIDED among family – Self does not remember details – Explains

06:10 Discusses DINING CHAIRS

06:41 HOUSE on market – Offers – Details

06:38 [Interviewer notes background noise – Recalls interviewee’s friend on motorbike last interview]

08:09 BARBARA and OWEN sold farm – RETIRED to ALEXANDRA

08:36 BRONWYN and husband bought farm - CASTLE HILL – Children JAKE and ANNA – Baby due

09:27 [Interviewer talking to Rest Home worker]

10:04 BARBARA and OWEN – Children - Geoffrey (sp?) CLERK of MANAKAU COURT – Former TEACHER – MEGAN – Nurse in KARRATHA – Western AUSTRALIA – Details Parents “ready to retire”

12:52 NEIL’s family – Children – Bradley and son SAMUEL – Great-grandson to Self BRADLEY in BANK OF NEW ZEALAND – Wife PIP former teacher – Youngest son JEREMY – Mechanic – Partner MEGAN chef – Daughter JESSICA – Details

15:33 PHOTOGRAPH with 4 generations of girls – Self, BARBARA, BRONWYN, ANNA – Mentions

16:09 NEIL and LYNETTE – NEIL with AQUATHERM – LYNETTE with SUPERVALUE – Details

16:51 VISITORS during past week – BOB MORRISON – School friend – Nieces from AUSTRALIA – Explains

18:33 Self’s SISTERS – Younger sister in AUSTRALIA – Oldest in CROMWELL – Explains No brothers – Sisters not close friends when children – Describes

19:42 HUMOUROUS RECOLLECTION of seeing nieces – Expected teenagers not adults

19:58 [Interviewer notes background noise]

20:23 Discusses current REST HOME – Gets homesick Friend from OTAUTAU in rest home - ADELINE CARR – Describes accident and heart attack – Need for personal assistance – Gets homesick - Recalls Friendship with ADELINE - Mentions 22:40 Self and ADELINE WALK daily – Describes

23:34 ENTERTAINMENT at rest home – Self reads and knits – Friday MUSIC enjoyable – Hairdresser - Describes

24:39 OTAUTAU doctor – Rest home changed ownership – Rest home van – Self enjoys OUTINGS – Embroidery day at RIVERTON – COLAC BAY with nieces – Describes

26:51 Self enjoys FREEDOM at rest home – Mentions

27:40 SOCIAL activities – HARRY with PTA, Church, Choir – Self Secretary of PLUNKET SOCIETY – Debutante balls – Describes

29:00 Involved in community FUNDRAISING – Mentions

30:30 End of Track 1

END OF INTERVIEW